Which writer is better: ESL w/ High academic profiency or a dumb American professional?

I want to start an argument between the two types of writers that someone might encounter during the process of their "right" custom-essay services.

ESL writer w/ highly proficient Academic skills:

Currently, United States is actually hiring different professionals across the globe due to their wide academic backgrounds and flexibility of skills, especially those from Philippines wherein English is the secondary language. The abilities of these ESLs are most of the time more analytic, critical and highly-innovative than those Americans. ESL writers, due to the hardship and tensions of their countries, have actually developed multi-specialization to various fields of academic world. In addition, since the professional or labor pay in their country is definitely low, these multi-experienced professionals are most of the time willing to write papers at a cost of $10-15/page.

American writers:

American writers have attained a certain stereotype in which they are viewed as the most highly intelligent beings in the world. However, these people are just the undeniable primary starters of the universal language but they cannot specialize in the vast fields of knowledge (e.g. medical field going to computer studies, naahhh). If in case someone can, I don't think they will even give a damn in using their academic backgrounds and experience to write a bunch of student papers. Of course, they will use their hard-earned experience to more rewarding tasks.

This topic has been beaten to death. I will give you quick answers.


If an ESL writer delivers product that is void of the general errors that are common to ESL writers, then he/she is qualified to write for American clients. HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of ESL writers who work in the ESSAY INDUSTRY are NOT the level of ESL writer whom the average, American customer would knowingly hire. The problem is with the foreign scam sites that intentionally lie to American consumers about how "all" of their writers are "American, PhD holders."


Any writer--even those native to the United States--may be unqualified to write for American consumers. Any writer--from any region--is capable of being an idiot. Legitimate, honest companies in America do NOT hire American idiots. Similarly, honest companies in America do not hire UNQUALIFIED, ESL writers and pass them off as high-cost-worthy, "Americans with PhD degrees from American universities." American customers deserve NEITHER unqualified, ESL writers NOR American idiots.

American clients deserve the truth--nothing more, nothing less.

Absolutely right and I definitely agree with you WB. Most essay company sites live up with their fraud statements that they have these high proficient writers whether ESL or Americans.

Another points to consider and definitely true.

Hence, considering all the points handed down by WB, essay firm should be honest on the credibility of their writers. This include hiring TRULY efficient writers, either ESL or AMERICANS, and placing a certain verification statement or PROOF that their writers are 100% proficient in both English and Academic skills.

However, for the sake of the argument, these are another possible points to consider:

1. As consumers or clients, how do we verify the TRUTH in terms of the credibility of the company's advertisement regarding their writers?

2. As a writing agency, how do we provide an actual proof that our writers are definitely credible and able to write good papers without actually compromising the name of our firm? In addition, how do we provide proofs that will not be entertained with skeptical approach from the side of both clients and other essay company?

2. Lastly, due to the prevailing stereotypes within the field of essay writing services in terms of ESL vs. Americans, there is a wider possibility that essay firms employing PROVED and VERIFIED proficient ESLs will encounter depressed market returns if they reveal the truth about their writers. If you are an essay agency owner, how will you consider solving this issue?

Wow, your post isn't biased.

So ESL writers can specialize in a variety of different fields but American writers can't.
And American writers are losers who should be doing better things but ESL writers are less expensive and better! Really!
And the U.S. is the birthplace of the world's universal language? Not Great Britain? And the SS twins haven't chimed in yet? I'm shocked.

Your post is nothing but assertions with no data and a clear attempt to promote ESL writers over Americans based upon stereotypes. So how many ESL writers do you know that you used to form your conclusions? How about American writers? Was there a survey passed around that I somehow missed?

Is this an argument? You're an ass. Attempting to pass off opinion as fact is low.

PS - I'm American, hold three degrees in three completely different areas and I write b/c it pays me more than the average salary made by professors in the U.S. (feel free to look up the data), I have the freedom to travel while working (on a vacation outside of the US now but still working) and I enjoy writing.

Well, actually, I do apologize for the offensive points Ms. Lavinia. You are right when you said that these are assumptions with no clear data to based on; however, there are certain truths in the arguments of my last posts.

I am pertaining to the two categories of American intelligent groups. First, intelligent American groups who will rather not waste their time in doing research paper because it pays less than the higher forms of opportunities in store for them. Second, intelligent American groups who prefer writing as a sideline since the profit returns are at least $60 to 70 per page (rush order).

On the positive note, the second category of American writers are quite less compared to the number of ESL writers out there, which will definitely add to the standard profit earnings of these writers since they are few in the society of essay writing services.

However, the disadvantaged side is most of Americans are not well suited for research writing, and some may try but end up not being proficient in writing essays.

Bottom line, Americans - low number of writers, costly, risky since not all can write good papers, but can really provide REAL PREMIUM papers.

On the side of ESL writers (let's be specific to Filipino writers), let's approximate a standard ratio of 1:10 for every proficient writer versus non-pro, which is actually a huge difference compared to the number of American writers.

In addition, due to the earnings of Filipinos in the Philippines, they will surely consider writing even for a cost of $30-$60 per page (rush), which is definitely cost-saving than with American writers.

In terms of proficiency, Filipinos are indeed ESLs but their English is even recognized by Americans (definitely undeniable). They also have good academic backgrounds and unsurprisingly being hired worldwide due to their skills and low labor costs. So far, Filipinos are the only ESL writers who are able to provide me with good papers

However, the disadvantage side is the saturation of other ESL writers (Indian, pakistani, etc.) have blurred the image of proficient ESL writers. In addition, the number of proficient ESL writers are very very very small.

Bottom line, ESL writers - low number of proficient writers who can write good papers, low cost, risky unless surely verified, and can also write PREMIUM quality papers.

With the summary of both writers, which one do you think is better?

Think you might find that you are wrong in the origins of the English language inquirer. Check out the below link for the history of the English language. I thinl you will find that English originated in England lol

englishclub.com/english-language-history.htm

I think he means that the version of English that foreign countries tend to teach is the American version.


American. If for no other reason, an American writer understands and can properly articulate the intricacies of American culture, current affairs, vernacular, etc.

That is peculiar. That is claiming that an imitator is better than the original. Cannot believe this.

What? Please read the posts carefully. You're obviously confused.

Think you are the one who is confused. The world knows that the British English is the best and it has to be so.

PULL
YOUR
HEAD
OUT!

I responded with "American" to the following question from "Inquirer":

"With the summary of both writers, which one do you think is better?"

Now, do you UNDERSTAND?

Oh, sorry! I really don't find the time to read the posts. I keep envying you all.

That must make the English even more difficult to learn then it already is especially if an ESL writer is then going to write for a British student. The spelling of many words differs from the American version to the British version as does the grammar.

Americans -



Yes, these statements have undeniable correct points.

For you StugglingStudent, we are actually considering a topic: American Writers versus ESL writers. I think it is obvious that what I am trying to imply is American English. In consideration to the topic and also the trends, there are more American clients looking for essay services than those British people. I can base that in my experience as a writer.

For the sake of continuing the argument and balancing the boat,

(First Issue)

Americans may indeed possess the GRAND mastery of American (for the sake of Struggling Student (:>) ) English language; however, in your opinion, are there sufficient American writers to cover all the needs of essay writing clients considering these factors:

1. Saturation of non-proficient ESL writers
2. High cost of American services
3. Less number of American writers due to the vast high earning opportunities available for intelligent individuals and high collar professions, such as doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.

(Second Issue)

Considering an ESL writing company that employs really PROFICIENT ESL writers (maybe due to the low labor costs of these individuals) but hides the identities of their writers, do you think exposing the identities of the writers will compromise the income of the company and ESL writers due to the higher preference towards American writers?

If American writers are indeed more preferable than ESL writers, do you think it is just appropriate for ESL writing companies to hide their identity from the consumers for the sake of marketing purposes and the survival their firms?

I really fail to understand this whole issue of ESL and writers from poor countries.

I mean how does the quality of work depend upon the fact whether a person belongs to a poor country or a rich country!

A person from a poor country can be more efficient and capable or even richer than someone from the so-called richer countries.

I think that writing companies must stop using these types of statements as "our writers are from English speaking countries"

how and why should it matter as long as there is efficiency and accuracy of work.

If the so-called english speaking country students were so proficient and capable, why the hell would the companies all over the world thrive due to business out-sourcing, especially to the so-called poor countries.

There is recession in almost all of the english speaking countries today?
Why?
Simply because the youth and the generation is incapable and wastes more time in trying to insult people in anywhich ways possible.

Its high time the approach is changed from "who is from which country" to "who is good at work and deserves to win!"

There is more to life than making comments about people's place of origin, financial status and first language.
Its time to move ahead and accept our weaknesses while realizing other people's strengths.
Its time to move on...............
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?????????????????????

I totally agree with you. Read your post from beginning to end.

Kindly read the whole posts for you to understand the given points. Based from your statements above, it seems that you don't even grasp the points of the argument.

Your environment will affect your success in life. Try researching on strain theory, nightingale's theory, etc. You will see that environment, setting, origin, and the available opportunities in a given setup can greatly influence once future in life.

"We are not an island and human beings always have to depend on each other"

Try using the above statement for some reasonable logic. Your statements above are pure idealism and definitely not applicable in the 21st century sir. I am living in a third world country as a foreign anthropologists and I know how good and intelligent people here are hindered by the insufficiencies of opportunities. See for yourself if you want proofs.

Good for you guys you didn't came from a third world country with highly corrupt department of education and government.

There are lots of good Filipino ESL writers here. In fact, they have been branded as the tiger of asia and the Second largest FLUENTLY speaking nation in 1990s. Its a shame they are not attaining enough opportunities to show their capabilities to the world. In addition, there are exponentially increasing FAKE ESLs that tarnish the good name and proficiency of credible ESLs.

Yes, it may appear biased, but this is only my opinion for the above post. I am not setting up an argument here, but I am answering an argument so I guess I deserve the opportunity to place my sides.

Let's say I am an owner of a writing agency and you are the consumer. I have two available writers here with the same academic proficiency and English fluency: (1) American for $60 per page, and (2) Filipino ESLs for $30 per page.

Which one will you choose?

Hypothetically, 90% will prefer the American writer despite of the cost and leave the ESL as the last option. What do you think?

I dont think my arguments are based on idealism and there are barriers to success due to insuffiencies of oppurtunitites.
If that were true then we wouldn't have greats like Mahatama Gandhi, Dr. B.R.Ambedkar, Nelson Mandela and Mother Teresa.
There are great people in each and every field, who have fought and struggled their way to gain what they desired in life.

And yes, whereas I do consider theories to be an important part of academic curriculum, i would rather base my arguments and judgements on the practical experiences and knowlegde which a person gains by virtue of co-existence with fellow humans.

I firmly believe that oppurtunities exist for those who seek them, how a person uses those oppurtunities to his benefit are a matter of persnal wisdom and choice, whether in a poor country or a rich one.

Poor countries have gotten richer by the sheer grit, determination and desire to achieve of even a handful of dynamic entrepreneurs.

History is proof of this fact.

I firmly believe that change can be brought about in the environment in which you live, if you desire the change and work towards it with sincerity and dedication.

Although i do not deny that as humans we have to "depend on each other" i do know that hard work, sincerity and dediction are the tools with which success can be attained and changes can be brought about in the society in which you co-exist.

Indeed, these are morality theories imposing the ideal way of life, which does not occur in the 21st century. If it does, then I should be able to see it happening here in my location right now. However, 88% of the population here in third world countries are uneducated due to the lack of educational opportunities.

Why don't you visit my location to verify these information?


Well, Philippines is not one of this, especially with the corrupt government existing in this country. Why don't you try and search about the professional statistics, brain drain conditions, employments, education status, and the overall conditions of these third world countries.

Take note, Philippines has always been like this for the past 20 years. Don't you think the people here are not doing their best to alleviate their country from these conditions? Yes, they are doing soooo many things to uplift their country, but nothing is happening due to the corruption of their leaders. What can you say about that?

I do agree that certain country politicians are more corrupt than the rest. Aren't you aware of the political situation of India or for that matter china?

These are two countries where corruption exists at each and every level. Believe me when i say each and every level!

The situation is so bad that many of the great leaders have had to sacrifice their lives to due to corruption, Yes, murdered in cold blood.

Thats the level of corruption in India. How would you explain the assasination of Prime minister Indira Gandhi, Or even her son Rajiv Gandhi.
This is corruption.

I am not denying that fewer oppurtunities exist for People of poorer countries, what i am emphasizing is that people must struggle and fight for their success, for what they believe in.

I have personal experience with this. I was denied the right to education (higher) due to the several family constraints. But i realized the importance of higher education and enrolled for a distance learning course. Since then, there has been no looking back.

Do you consider these countries proficient sources of ESL writers? definitely Not. Now, can these be considered out of the topic? Definitely yes.



As far as I am concerned, we are only covering the FILIPINOS.

Kindly read the whole statements and messages between the lines. You are telling things based from theory and research of others. I am telling things based from my experience as an anthropologist here in this country and theories from my academic background.

Were you able to experience those statements of yours in China and India? If so, then I agree with you, but if not, well at least try to experience it first and be on the real setting than sticking in your ideal world.

Ideal things tend to blind people from the real scenario ya' know.

Please don't make comments about issues that you clearly do not understand.


Finally, an ESL writer who doesn't take things personally and actually understands the real issues!

The burden is on the company to prove to the public that the ESL writer is truly equal. The industry is packed with liars and dishonest companies from Pakistan, Ukraine, and, unfortunately, the Philippines.


Even when an ESL writer honestly thinks that he/she is equal to a native English-speaking writer, he/she is more than likely wrong because he/she does not understand certain intricacies of the English language (and American grammar/vernacular).

The bottom line is that if the owner of an essay-writing company from Ukraine is an ESL speaker him/herself, he/she is not qualified to--or CAPABLE of--judging an ESL writer's proficiency in English language writing. The slightest errors in grammar throughout a document can make the author seem quite ignorant. In general, only an AMERICAN--like me--catches those mistakes. I see such errors throughout most of the posts in this thread. The same errors appear in ESL papers delivered to customers. I've seen it a thousand times.

WB really has sense with his response. I am really intrigued by your answers.


Yes, a really good point to consider.

Now, let us raise another issue with Americans and ESL writer, specifically the Filipinos, since they are so far the most credible ESL writers. Considering American writers' undeniable skill in their language and ESL writers' refined English structuring and grammar awareness (yet not comparable with American speakers), how about in terms of analytical and academical experiences?

AMERICANS:
> 100% English awareness
> Good academic skills
> High cost of service -- $60-80 per page (rush order)

FILIPINO ESLs:
> 90% English awareness (verified and proven)
> Good academic skills
> Low cost of service -- $30-40 per page (rush order)

If you are a client, which one will you prefer?

If you are an employer, will you still hide the identity of your ESL writers?

With your personal opinion, do you think these conditions might still compromise the profit returns of these ESL writing companies?

NOTE:

My arguments may sound redundant or very much the same from the previous; however, each time some one answers, I make sure something is modified in the conditions. For those willing to answer the post, please do not take it seriously since this is just an intelligent conversation and sharing of opinions. Nothing personal for this current post.

Your questions are framed in such a way that--in order to answer, as is--one would have to assume that the foreign companies are honest. As I have proven time and time again, they are resoundingly NOT honest.

Foreign companies LIE about hiring only native English-speaking writers because the owners KNOW that profits will plummet if they advertise the truth.

Yes, I do consider India a proficient source of ESL writers. In fact, Indians are highly proficient in their use of the English language, besides many other languages, of course. The accents may differ.

And if Writing companies are hiring writers from india and are satisfied with their work, i see no reason why They should be left out of the discussion.

Of course unless you want to focus only on fillopino writers. Which company pays $30 and $60 PPP to their writers. I dont think they are so honest and straightforward that they'll pay their writers well enough. The best I've heard is "Upto $18" PP on most writing websites.


Regarding your second quote above, i am living in India and have experienced numerous problems due to corruption. I speak from personal experience.

Anyway, if you want to disclude India from this discussion regarding ESL profiency, then i guess I wont have much to say.
Good bye and good luck to you.


The errors which you notice and speak of are visible and comprehensible to me too.
And English is not my mothertongue. It is my second language.

Thats precisely the point I am trying to make.
Profiency (or lack of it) cannot and should not be generalized according to the country an individual belongs to. Because, profiency in any language, whether English, Hindi, Urdu, Chinese etc. can be acquired by way of practice.

And this is a trait (practice, to achieve perfection) which one can find in any individual, the World over.
The United States of America, india, Phillipines, China.............. just about any where..............

The errors are present throughout YOUR posts!

The situation and condition of India , a few years back, was known to the world. To many, India was a land of Elephants and snakes and black magic.............

It is only a decade and a half back, that India has made its mark in the world, and i daresay, this is due to the grit, determination and hardwork of a few individuals like Narayan murthy (Infosys technologies), Azim prmeji (Wipro), Ratan Tata (Tata motors- heard of the recent takeovers in the automobile sector?) and some more. They believed in India, in spite of the corruption, lack of good infrastructure, and political interferences.

The point that i am trying make is that A Change can be brought about, if one wills to. This, i speak not by referring to some source, its my personal experience. Even if a handful of people get together and do something good for society, In this case, lets say the phillipines, a change can be brought about.

And how?
Well, its a matter of personal choice. The choices are numerous.
Sponsor a child in your community who you think or know will perform, encourage this act among those who you know or can accomplish. let the cycle begin, and then ten years down the line, see the sea of change that has occurred.

This i speak not from some theorotical but personal experience, again. You simply need to lend a helping hand and see the numerous that aspire to reach out to you.

I know that the discussion has rambled away from the point, but you spoke of Phillipines and the scope (lack of) of develpment there, so.............

Thank you.


Thank you...........

Hahaha... riiiiiight..... ^____^

Not correct. As I stated, I made more last year from my writing than the average salary in the U.S. for a tenured professor, which is the area where an individual with a Ph.D. is most likely to be employed.

And your claim that Americans charge $60 to $70 per page but ESL's charge $30 for rush is rubbish. Just to use a couple of examples of the more prominent American companies:

********* : 38$ per page for rush.
Papermasters : $32 or 33 per page for rush.
What American writers are charging $60 to 70 for rush?

The rest of your response is just a collection of additional, unevidenced assertions.

The fee of $60 is the max that any of the REAL, American companies charge:

mysecurepayment.com/research/order.php

The writer probably receives $30.

Interesting, I had never heard of that company.
My point still stands, however. There are plenty of American verified companies that charge in the 30ish range for rush rather than the 60+ range as inquirer suggested - the supposed price difference between proficient ESL writers and proficient American writers isn't very large.

Well yes, now that ESL writers that can give EFL writers a run for their money are actually accessible to the American/European buyer. ^_^ It's called competitive pricing. :p

You're suggesting now that Papermasters, ********* and others used to price at $60-70 per page and then dropped their prices to compete w/ ESL writers. Not true.

I wouldn't know as I haven't been here that long. However, I am inclined to think that the sites you mentioned are currently charging people less than they used to. Would I be wrong in that assumption?

Say, would these companies ever consider hiring someone like me? :p

I think you're wrong about that. I would think that the presumption to provide evidence for that contention falls upon you. If you provide the ev, I'll certainly read it.


Dunno, I don't work HR =p

I have no factual evidence about pre-ESL essay prices and neither am I someone who would go through the trouble to get it for this particular case. ^_^


:p

I choose to believe that a properly educated person, a college graduate to be specific, can properly develop an English paper for a client. Be the writer ffrom the Philippines or the U.S., the proof of the paper is in the writing. Both countries use the American educational system so the writing styles could be similar. If the paper provided satisfies the homework or research paper, and it happens to be done by a Filipino, what difference does it make? However, if the unusable paper is completed by an American 1 which does happen sometimes then, there is a problem. If they both do well at their jobk, then there isn't much of an issue is there? They have equal work quality, sometimes.

The difference between the 2 sets of writers no longer matters. There are English writers who only care about the pay and not the quality of the work. Be hean ESL or ENL, they now both just look at the bottom line. This is nothing more than a money maker for both first. Quality is second or non. existent in some cases. As far as I am concerned, it all boils down to the actual writing and learning proficiency of the student. He should live a writer based on his own classroom skills so as not to get caught having used a writing service. An ENL may be a red flag for an ESL student and vice versa.