Calling a spade . . .a spade - let's fight the cause and learn from mistakes

For months I have faithfully read all the threads here.

Aren't we all victims of our own prejudices and biases? I am still perplexed and baffled as to the goal we all seek to achieve.

Perhaps, the people who have defrauded us and are still defrauding many, laugh at our backs because there is disunity and disharmony within our own ranks.

Those who use this forum and other forums similar to this for advertisements, be gone! You prostitute and exploit this venue which was created to inform the innocent from being victimized. A venue created so that those victimized can unite and voice dissent for a noble cause. You are even more deplorable than those denounced as scammers because they have the decency of advertising in job web sites!

By earning several degrees with the highest honors, one still cannot claim monopoly of knowledge or of perfection. It is in the imperfections that I become a part of the human race. It is in these imperfections that life becomes a challenge and not a monotonous drab.

We easily castigate others who were victimized as deserving of their fate and therefore deserve to be robbed of every penny they earned BUT have we forgotten into oblivion that we, ourselves were all victimized at one instance? Then why should we further victimize and traumatize them. Are we not even worse than the ones we have denounced and labeled 'Ukrainian/Pakistani' scammers?

How easy it is to hot-brand people as ESL low quality and one belonging to the third world. Arguments fail reason and logic, consequently resulting into a mere fallacy. How is it that we attribute responsibility for the level of economic development of one's country to a victimized writer, a national of that country? Poverty is worldwide, even the streets of a rich nation are littered with beggars and the hungry.

Is the cause that we fight about - race? proficiency in English? our own country standards? economic development of our own respective countries? It is very easy to start a spark for war, a spark to break diplomatic ties.

Or is the cause that we fight about fraud--fraud that traverses territorial jurisdictions of countries; fraud that traverses international borders?

Therefore, if we all maintain only the righteousness and the affluence of our own respective countries or ourselves-we would NEVER achieve anything except hurt others while the endemic fraud we seek to eradicate continues to flourish and pervade.

Exploitation and fraud thrive and multiply in the dark alleys of misinformation and absence of information. Let us all seek to constructively inform.

Let us fight our cause like learned and educated people.

Great,I appreciate what you have mentioned and it makes alot of sense,truly amazing.We as humanbeings can achieve lots through unity but unfortunately that's what we lack, we still keep discriminating ourselves based on colour/origin/caste and over other trivial issues,have we ever thought how we could make this world a better place ? very few of us think to this extent don't we ?rather it's about Americans/Indians/Pakistani's/MIT's and IIT's, let's make it more pleasant by sharing information and by developing ourselves.

Well,50 years from now where would we all be?just give it a thought - in the graveyard , moreover where would our degrees from Oxford,Harvard,Cambridge,and LSE's be - eaten by moth and dust.

My sincere appeal is that let's not discriminate and be judgemental,lets make this world a better place after all we are human .

Blah, blah, blah. Enough with the sob story. You've totally misunderstood the simple point and blown things completely out of proportion with your self-perpetuated inclination to believe the being called an UNQUALIFIED ESL WRITER is the same as being called a racial slur.

It's NOT about discrimination!
It's NOT about racism!
It's NOT about geography!

Unqualified, ESL writers with POOR GRAMMAR AND WORD USE should not be writing for American customers. Period. Is that so difficult to understand? Why can't these ESL writers focus on writing in their native langauge for customers of that same language? C'mon, it's common sense.

I'm not a surgeon, so I'm sure as hell not going to apply for that job! Get the point?

There is a way how to communicate but do not discriminate on the basis of origin and race,then why are you not pointing at poor American writers? people from India and Pakistan are no second class citizens,I feel your logic rubbish and you are just misleading everyone here,you are out of your mind.

I feel your logic is rubbish and you are lost in your own world

Hello Pro!
You said . . .
"Well,50 years from now where would we all be?just give it a thought - in the graveyard , moreover where would our degrees from Oxford,Harvard,Cambridge,and LSE's be - eaten by moth and dust."

I agree and additionally, I would like to say that studying can only inform. It takes a higher degree of education to have HONOR and HUMILITY. For true knowledge HUMBLES a person. Possession of true wisdom and education distinguishes an individual from how the brutes think.

I think it was Oliver Wendell Holmes who said, "The mind of the BIGOT is like pupil of the eye, the more light you pour into it--the more it contracts." Quite very apt, wouldn't you agree.

Hi Chase,

Yes, I agree with you absolutely,not all educated people are humble and responsible.
There are very few educated people in this world who possess great qualities , I also find you so unique in this whole forum which makes me predict what you will become in the future..... great! you have a great future ahead of you .

Another important factor is that , the values inherited/learnt by an Individual makes a huge difference in his/her personality which eventually reflects in his/her personal and family life , wouldn't you agree?

Anybody else hear those crickets?

Hi Pro
I agree fully and I will have to move on to the next level--back to the official world. Allowing others to monitor this. . .quite a reach now-internationally.

Boy, somebody has a stick up their --- about these ESL writers. Don't you think you're being a little harsh here Amabella? I sense a real personal tone of anger in your words when you discuss these writers and just not in this thread.

I wouldn't call it racist but it is prejudice. I don't see the harm in foreigners competing for work here. How many schools have foreign students enrolled? There is a market for say... an Indian who speaks English, no matter how limited. We do live in a free market system, competition is healthy for it. If your work is superior to his you'll get the job... so what's the big deal? Globalization is the trend of the future, you may as well get used to them being in competition with you.

If I were an Indian student, for example, I would love to order writing services from a company based in India that hires only native Indian-speaking writers. Is it not reasonable for Americans to expect the same when they shell out their hard-earned money?

What you fail to acknowledge is that these foreign sites--like BestEssays.com and SuperiorPapers.com, both owned my EssayWriters.net--falsely claim to hire only AMERICAN WRITERS WITH PHD DEGREES in order to fool American customers. This forum proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that these ripoff sites hire ESL writers with poor grammar in the English language because they work for MUCH LESS PAY. This does not mean that the ESL writers are "ignorant," "stupid," or "uneducated." This has nothing to do with racism or prejudice. If I were to study Indian or Urdu and then attempt to write for an Indian company, for Indian or Pakistani customers, I would not be surprised if they were unhappy with my POOR GRAMMAR in Indian or Urdu. Get my point? This has everything to do with Americans being ripped off by foreign companies that hire ESL writers for low wages, and then falsely advertise these ESL writers as "Americans with perfect writing skills in the English language" in order to get top-dollar from misled, American customers. If an Indian site falsely claimed that its American writers were "native Indian-speaking professionals," I would be just as disgusted with THAT deception.

First, I must correct you... hehehehe. Essay Writers didn't claim to hire PhD writers. They required a Bachelors.
Second, I must express my bewilderment over my inability to draft a short post... I'm as baffled as you.
Third, I know it seems like I'm attacking you personally, I'm not. Whether you know it or not a writer writes in the subtext never in the context. I see in your subtext things that trouble me and I'm just trying to understand.

Away we go...

Are you trying to say that Americans don't do or shouldn't do business with companies based in other countries? If you have a cell phone your customer support more than likely comes from India. Same if you have a Dell computer. The list goes on and on.

Degree vs. No Degree

Sweetie, you must be young... under 30 for sure, right?

Life lesson 101: Pedigrees don't mean anything.

In the end it doesn't matter if a PhD or a High School dropout wrote something. What matters is how good the work is. I know a couple people with PhD's and I hate to burst your bubble but they are some of the stupidest people I know. Sure, they're masters in their field but they can hardly function in the real world. The only thing a degree proves is that you were able to put in the time and you were smart enough to remember enough information to gain a passing grade thus earning your degree.

A few years ago I went to get my masters. I met with a counselor and discussed what I wanted to do and my reasons for wanting to do so. She told me not waste my time. Experience not degrees get you work. I learned firsthand how true that statement was. How many instructors do you know at colleges across the country that don't even have a high school diploma? I know one. What he does have are years of experience doing what he teaches.

The waiting list to get into his class is impressive. I suspect if you wanted to learn how to structure fiction you would take a pass on this course because there is no way the instructor can be smarter than you because he doesn't have a degree. It would be your loss. Students of this man have gone on to win Oscars, Pulitzers and other awards. The funniest thing about this guy... he needs an assistant... he doesn't speak English too well.

My sister is another prime example of just how worthless a degree can be. She graduated high school and never went to college, she has no degree. In order to be considered for her job you would need a Masters. The company she works for hired her during the initial interview last year. She wasn't seeking the job, the invited her to apply. They took her over all other applicants who had MBA's. Why? Because of her experience.

You do need to learn to hold less emphasis on a person's education lest you miss out on learning something that later in life you would view as the key to it all. I too at one point in my life was like you. I equated no degree to ignorance. The internet was new and one day I met this guy in a chat room. He was a writer and we had a lot in common. After a few conversations with him I learned he couldn't spell, had piss poor sentence structure skills and almost no vocabulary. I almost bailed. I didn't and I'm both glad and a better writer because of it.

Where I lacked, he either excelled or was able to show me how in a way that clicked within me. With him laying out the foundation I was able to craft quality work, both in non-fiction and fiction. After a couple years I moved onto other projects without him. I wouldn't be where I am today if it weren't for that illiterate bum. The moral of this is that everybody holds value to somebody. Who are you to condemn someone because they don't meet your standards?

I work with many bad writers. I do so because they aspire. They're willing to put in the work even if there's no chance of a sale at the end. They do it because they want to learn. In working with them I've learned too. That's a big thing. As much as you think I'm not on your level with a keyboard squared is how far away from my level you are in structuring and executing stories. If I can learn something from "stupid" people I'm sure you have some room to learn as well. You said you write for yourself. Wonderful. Don't you want to treat yourself to the best writing you're capable of? Don't you aspire?

My point is very focused. You're drifting off on tangent points about which I am not arguing.

--------------------------
"Our company cooperates only with certified writers, MD holders, professors, researchers and editors. All of them are native English speakers, proficient in their specific area."

- bestessays.com

"Most of our writers hold Masters Degrees and work in the related fields."
- bestessays.com/faq_qualifications.php

"Our writers have received education and have gained experience in many fields. Most of them hold Master and PhD degrees, they are world-recognized and highly in demand."

- superiorpapers.com/faq.php

"Native English professionals"
superiorpapers.com/term_paper_writing_services.php
--------------------------

The Ukrainians behind EssayWriters.net also own BestEssays.com and SuperiorPapers.com, which bring in the orders (suckers).

Dozens of ESL writers (with only BA degrees or LESS) who currently work or formerly worked for EssayWriters.net have posted here.

Can you defend EssayWriters.net's blatant FRAUD against American consumers?

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised in the crooks edit their pages now, as their paid minions frequent these boards. No matter--I have the screenshots and archive.org.

Not to split hairs but do you see the problem between your two claims? You're running around screaming... ok... ok... TYPING 'they claim to hire ONLY...'

I must admit the first of the three does in fact say only but the rest say MOST. I should also point out that one of the MOST's is from the same site as the first one who said ONLY which could imply a possible typo or breach of communication.

I fail to see the fraud you're speaking of here. As the customer you can either accept or reject the work. If it's good who cares if a MOSTLY PhD wrote it?

I'm new to this whole essay writing thing so I have a question for you... and it's a dumb one I'm sure... WHAT IN THE FRACK IS AN ESL WRITER?!

Battlestar cursing--I LIKE IT!

ESL = English as a Second Language

They contradict their own policies on different pages of their sites because they are LIARS and CON-ARTISTS.

It's difficult for one to keep one's story straight when one is constantly skirting the truth and writing bogus Web copy strictly to entice would-be customers.

Here's a lesson for up-and-coming crooks: preface all of your fraudulent advertising with the word "most," and you'll be fine.

LOL Ambiguity is the best defense!

I hate to say it but that doesn't seem too politically correct... I can see how some would take offence.

I'm dating myself here but I loved the original Galactica... but the new one rocks... best drama around... sucks a$$ through a straw sideways that we have to wait till January for new eps.

I knew Starbuck wasn't dead . . . c'mon!

You thought she was dead... don't fib! What you didn't know is she's a Cylon; one of the final five!

Hmmm, there IS one still up for grabs . . . .

So does custompapers.com hire ESL = English as a Second Language writers? Any suggestions people

How would anyone know who hires who...? If a company is good, they hire best writers and vice-versa.

When a customer orders a paper from custompapers.com, the company forwards the email address of the customer to the writer, thats what they say on their website. Hence, the customer can keep in touch with the writer through email. By this, he can ask or may be guess, whether the writer is an American, British or from other country.

It doesn't. Of course. (Custompapers.com may be hiring ESLs)

I've been following the discussions on this forum with great interest over the past 24 hours because I'm a new writer at essaywriters.net and am somewhat suspicious about their ability/willingness to pay.

Full Disclosure: I am an Indian/Pakistani (Since Amy likes to fuse our identities and I'm not actually that interested in prying us apart).

This does NOT mean, automatically, that I've been hired by essaywriters.net in a damage-control exercise.

I've never been to the US, have lived all my life in a small town in India/Pakistan and yet I aspire to be a writer in English. (*gasp* *shock & awe*) Because it's the language I'm most comfortable expressing myself in. (NEVER start a sentence with "Because").

This lengthy preamble because I want to avoid being baited as some of my unfortunate compatriots have.

Here's what I like about essaywriters.net.
1) They're NOT stuck up about hiring Indian/Pakistanis who can write. So if I want to be a work-at-home writer in this industry (we Indian/Pakistanis are also entitled to desire that kind of life), and I don't want to leave my country AND I have some degree of competence or pretended competence at what I do.. where do I begin? (Here's Amy's cue to rant about how this *isn't* a forum to promote good sites! Go.. elsewhere for that. WHERE?).

2) They give amateur writers a chance to get paid for writing, or to try at any rate. Ok, so maybe the average Indian/Pakistani ESL writer is incapable of writing an acceptable US "college" thesis. But that's really a very blinkered way of looking at the market and pretending that the ONLY buyers you get are dishonest gullible redneck Master's and Ph.D students in the US. I think the market for gibberish (two page write-ups on c*ap) is as large as the market for arcane scholarly dissertations. And (*groan* not a sentence beginning with "And"!) I have hunch that's where there's space for us oily goat-milking Indian/Pakistanis to make ourselves useful. As self-deprecatory as that sounds, even the worst of us is useful because we are completing the bulls-i* projects of clients whom your Ph.d saturated industry is too stuck-up to service. Gradually, very innocuously we're graduating your country's finest. In that process we're graduating ourselves. What's really going to scare the Amys of the world is if somehow, we oily goat-milking Indians actually begin to produce "US standard" (oxymoronish, no?) dissertations. Ofcourse that thought has never occured to her/him.

3) The work is interesting! Really. So, (tut tut) I'm not ONLY on a trip of looting hapless US/UK/Canada students of their bottom-dollar. I find that some of the projects on this site are really interesting and are issues, the study of which would add to my own "perspective". I just finished a somewhat complex project in a subject that lay in the borderlands of my area of specialization, which required me to digest a lot of material that I wouldn't have encountered in the ordinary course. (Can't suppress a boast here: I got a "Very satisfied" review from my customer for my very first project. Yay.) Maybe essaywriters.net won't pay me at the end of it, but like the user "rat" says, my insurance is that I can copyright "my" paper. And although it is unacceptable not to be paid, there's some consolation to be gained from the fact that we're enriched in other ways. This is not only an industry which produces "non-plagiarised" material - it is also in the business of originality.

4) They paid some of the members of this forum *after* explicit attacks vented against them. That shows a creeping degree of good-faith that isn't easy to dismiss off-hand.

The things that make me uncomfortable about essaywriters.com:
1) Obviously, they're not paying on time. I can see how that can be disastrous to those who rely on this as their primary source of income. I wish they'd take more care and invest more time in their primary resource. Or atleast invest some more in retaining their better writers. As Amy pointed out, I have a hunch they'll hire anyone. I advance my own admission as evidence. But there has to be a mechanism to ensure that the better writers amongst the lot are treated with more dignity - not necessarily paid better although that would be ideal. Perhaps they ought to build up quasi-personal relationships with their veteran/trusted writers. Pay them even for projects that don't pay up. I'm sure they have the money for it.

2) They evidently don't back their own writers. I refer to one of the instances where plagiarism was indicated in the "Works Cited" page. This is alarming, more so because I am a lazy referencer. I prefer to copy/paste citation entries where available, instead of reconstructing them from scratch. But this is indicative of their apathy towards their own writers. It's not something which immediately brands them as evil, but it does make them impossible to ever trust to any great degree.

3) They don't let you communicate directly with the client. They do have a link that lets you send a message to the client, but I'm fairly certain they're screening all messages to and from the client. It takes inordinately long for the client to respond and I can't believe that is because he/she only accesses the internet once a day. It is annoying because it holds up your work when you need an important clarification from the client.

4) Where on earth are they located? I must admit this is the most disconcerting aspect of all. I can understand that admitting you're based in the Ukraine, and then attempting to sell to a primarily American/UK market will ensure your business is a non-starter. Especially when purchases come with prejudices of the sort Amy harbours. But it doesn't make it very easy for us to trust them. Its curious that the user "Beth" claims to be an accounts officer of some sort for the outfit. I imagine she would have an office somewhere..

Other things I wanted to talk about:
1) I cannot stress enough how valuable this site is - even as solely anti-essaywriters.net as it may seem. I applaud the vitriol of such dedicated members as Amy and others. I think the existence of the possibility of a backlash from their writers alone will either compell them take remedial action or will bring them down. Both of which are positive outcomes. I'm secretly rooting for the former. I hope the user "Beth" is paying attention.

2) There was a suggestion that we Indian/Pakistanis are undercutting the wages of the good American Ph.D expert essay-writers (ofcourse writers never earn "wages". That's the disgraceful stuff labourers earn.). But then again, maybe that's in fact why this market is viable at all. All the fraud essay writing sites that dangle hopes in front of beleagured out-of-cash students in the US/UK/Canada, invisibly line the pockets of the Custompapers.com-s and ukessays.com-s. People who can only afford $8 a page aren't your primary customers, but that doesn't mean they're not customers at all. I know you want to set up an intergalactic empire of pure-bred US/UK/Canada essaywriters who work from home. But maybe there's place even for the riff-raff to set up shop. It's certainly the riff-raff who're your clients. (Oh Come ON!)

3) Data on Alexia indicates that Indians are the top visitors at essaywriters.net (alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=essaywriters.net). Hm. For really surprising results check Custompapers.com's entry (alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=custompapers.com)

4) I dont know if any of you are struck by how bizarre this industry is, where both the buyers and the real sellers (the actual writers) operate in shadows - being unable to fully disclose their identities. It's fertile ground for scam essay webistes to make a killing.

5) What wondeful times we live in.

I'm sorry if this sounds like an Anti Amy entry. I'm sure he/she'll have a lot to say in return. Racist is the wrong word to apply to him/her. It's the supreme condescension and the cavalier ease with which (s)he's prepared to dismiss countries and cultures (OfCOURSE they're a scam. They're from UKRAINE) that's irritating.

On the other hand, I'm really in awe of the command he/she obviously possesses over the English language. I can't help being very self-conscious in this regard. I haven't run this entry through a spell check and I hope you won't be its substitute - as you have with other users. I disclaim proficiency in the apocryphal "American English" at the outset.

It was a pleasure to read the more balanced opinions of users like "coder" and "Dylan" and a real treat to receive advice on writing from the "rat". (Definite sign that we've progressed as a planet, when we can say the last part of that sentence without being considered a lunatic)

Thanks for all.

Please quote a single instance of my "prejudice," and I'll explain exactly how you are completely wrong.

Why all the talk about goats?

Being a crook in UKRAINE cannot possibly be any worse than being a crook anywhere else.


Here are three instances. I don't want to press the issue. You may of course think (THINK) you are not being prejudiced ("prejudiced") but it is quite manifest. Others have said it before. Like I said, I don't want to press the issue. You're entitled to your prejudices.

I have to side with gibreel Amy. You come across as prejudice. It's the main reason I was picking on you earlier today. There is a mean hateful undertone to your postings whenever you mention writers and companies from other countries.

FYI in case you haven't seen it yet I located the LLC for that company you said didn't exsit. I posted a link on the thread.

Thank you rat.
I'm just wondering, has there been any discussion on this forum about the legitimacy of this industry as a whole? It seems to me, at least in India, that you would not be able to organise a business of this sort. It comes squarely within the description of "cheating" (inducing a person to act in a way they would not otherwise act - i.e inducing universities to award degrees).

Further, if there exist analogous provisions in other jurisdictions, I think the heroic attempts by some to physically locate these organisations is futile because after that, what? You cannot possibly sue them, imho, because most jurisdictions also require that the plaintiff approach the court with "clean hands". So a customer cannot possibly sue.

I'm curious to know how companies like ukessays.com or custompapers.com are able to maintain their claim to legitimacy.
I find this the most fascinating aspect of this industry by far. That it can only exist in the nebulous amoral nether world of the internet and that redress for complaints are only possible again, on the internet.

Gibreel, your "quotes" are so very weak. Ever heard of a little thing called CONTEXT? Hmm, I wonder why you didn't include the ENTIRE POSTS.

Deep thoughts, by Jack Handy . . . .

Because I'm from essaywriters.net. BOO.

Truth be told I haven't explored the legality of this bizz. In my opinion the entire thing is unethical. Consider the possibility that one of these students using purchased papers could one day be your doctor.

touche' jibreel...loved ur post

and i've probably spelt that wrong...kill me AMY why dont you?

this is what my last customer had to say:

"please dont write exceleent english, my teacher knows how i write, something awesome will make him suspiscious" JOHN

and he was american...
this is why some of us "ESL" writers are hired....
we make grammatical errors...we make spelling mistakes...but we get the job done and we make it look REAL!

and they're many websites that respect imperfect essays!

Hey Saba,
You're right about that, and its a point I wanted to make, but didn't get around to making.
Although your client in this instance was American, I get the impression that a majority of clients are in fact students of other nationalities working through their college degrees in the US/UK. Perhaps I'm wrong about that.

Which site do you use? How long have you been at this? Do they pay you?
Anyway.. on a different note, its too bad both our teams crashed out of the world cup eh?

Rat,
My first impressions on the ethics of the scheme were identical. But some of the testimonials at Custompapers.com beg a reconsideration of the issue. For instance tlumaczenie.com/graduate.html - where a physiotherapist admits to using the service and claims that it gave him more time to gain valuable hands-on experience in treating patients!

You think that the "testimonials" on essay sites are real? LOL!

I can see your point but I disagree with it. Professors hand those assignments out for a reason. If an assignment is given to a student to do a report on space flight and the student purchases the paper what has he learned? Consider how much information you take in when you're researching a paper that you don't use in the final product.

Don't forget the researching skills you develop when you research your paper. What happens if that doctor you mention runs across a patient with a condition he's never seen before? Had he researched all his papers he'd have an easier time researching the patient's condition.

First of all, that person clearly communicated intent to CHEAT, but you and BestEssays.com served him anyway, which blatantly violated the statutes of virtually every state. (Yes, look it up, rat!)

Secondly, any American writer (me, for instance) can "dumb down" his/her writing, but an ESL writer with poor grammar won't be able to write at my level (in the English language).

who's competing with you Amy?

I'm only saying that ESL writers are serving a different market...

(I'm writing 2 pagers and I don't EVER plan on writing dissertations)

Jibreel...the world cup is still a touchy subject here...I'm rooting for SriLanka now..

Zig-Zag, the cigarette paper makers, knows most people use their product to smoke week yet they still manufacter the papers. What's your point? More hair splitting and holding them to a higher standard than you hold others.

I wonder is this the foundation of all your hate and anger. Were you constantly passed over for work that was given to "ESL" writers?

I'm sorrry that you label FACTS as "hate and anger."

I'm not labeling the "facts" as hate and anger, I'm labeling your actions and words as hate and anger. I'm sorry if you don't understand that.

What words, exactly? Be careful here. I want you to quote me, but you must include the ENTIRE post. Hurry!

I don't have the time to list them all and I doubt the webmaster of this site hasn't set the discussion boards up a post that would be as large as what you're requesting me to do.

Not to mention from your silence it appears you've either been fired, banned or scared off... so it would be a waste of time... simply put just read one of your posts... odds are 1:4 that you'll come across one with at least 3 examples.

Now, I'm done with this... IF you have REAL evidence you wish me to respond to I will, if you want me to participate in mudd slinging and name calling, I won't. So, do what you want, just know I will not be drawn into your games any more!