'PhD in English Literature' (*guffaw).

I'm loving this.

Forgive me; I'm a complete newbie on this site. I was trawling the net as I'm playing with the idea of testing my potential as a professional academic writer at some point and washed up here. I'm currently writing my Masters dissertation so I'm not the competition I hasten to add (not yet anyway). Oh, and I'm not in need of essay writing services either (just thought I'd throw that in for good measure).

Having spent a couple of hours looking at the posts here and on essaychat, it doesn't take more than a couple of active brain cells to differentiate the wheat from the chaff. These forums do the job for you as the vast majority of those promoting themselves as 'good' academic writers can't hang a simple sentence together, let alone spell or apply English grammer and punctuation correctly. They also, like the OP here, reveal themselves pretty quickly when challenged by the qualified.

It's also notable that those who are obviously skilled (the few) are also those most frequently attacked by those who aren't (the many).

No doubt I will now be accused of having a hidden (commercial) agenda. 'Fraid not. I was just passing by.

Thanks for the smiles guys... it was a welcome distraction from my current academic challenge.

Yep, I'd noticed :D Serves them right. Professing to be 'professionals' in a medium which blatantly reveals that they're anything but, suggests they're a can short of a six-pack. I'm amazed at the number of people who seem to think that being able to speak English (native or ESL) somehow qualifies them to market themselves as academic writers. It's a very specific skill which, like any other, takes practice to become proficient, and real competence is rare. Kind of explains the number of complaints from (disappointed) customers that flood the web.


See 'can short of a six-pack' :D

I've also noted that some customer expectations seem unrealistically high. That old 'you get what you pay for' applies. I know how long it takes me to put together a decent paper (and, by that, I mean at least a 2.i at undergrad, or 'merit' at Masters level) and I wouldn't shake my tail for some of the rates these cheapo (overseas?) sites offer, and I suspect the same applies ten-fold to the professionals here.


They reel them in and then hang them out to dry. I shouldn't laugh but it's like witnessing a train crash. The noise on the track usually means a train's coming but that's lost on anyone who has never seen a train. (still chuckling)

miki

Thanks for the PM.

I need 15 x posts to reply but will do so when I qualify. I'm ex-US resident so 'multi-lingual' humorous/humourous.

Perfect :D

Another perspective perhaps?
Here in the UK we also have sizeable foreign student cohorts at most universities but proofreading support is conspicuous by its absence. Many (most?) universities assume that all students have reached the required (unstated) level in written as well as spoken English and do not target resources at addressing any 'prerequisites'. In my experience, a significant number of students (home and overseas) would benefit from this help but, as they are not substantionally penalised for poor punctuation, etc. as undergrads, there is little incentive to seek help (professional or otherwise). Maybe explains the lack of demand on this side of the Atlantic.

I doubt I'll make it. You guys are too distracting and the thought of a scurry of Chipmunks bidding for my 'model dissertation' is enough to keep my nose to the grindstone.

I wish I could claim a transatlantic accent Ishy but when you've spent your entire childhood in one country (the UK in my case) it tends to direct your accent forever. I've moved around a bit - especially in the US - so tend to sometimes use American language form ('I'm sat on the couch' v 'I'm sitting on the sofa', 'trunk' v 'boot', that kind of thing) but the accent is standard British. Having said that, in the US, it's often confused with Australian or Irish. In my experience, little is lost in translation between the various versions of spoken English, although the idioms are a bit different so can sometimes lead to a few (usually hilarious) misunderstandings.

I have a friend whose family left Iran as refugees when she was a child. She was raised in Holland, an undergrad in the USA, and is now an ESL teacher in the UK. Her accent is lovely but difficult to place. She speaks flawless, but slightly foreign-accented, English with a distinctly American intonation.

Given the amazing variety of English idioms and accents, the thing that surprises me is that 'standard' written English is the great language leveller. With the exception of slight differences in spelling between American and English forms, written English (and, by that, I don't mean the 'relaxed' type) is a universal standard. I couldn't tell that you were American, or the nativity of anyone else here who adopts a 'standard English' writing style, unless one of those spelling differences appeared. Same applies when you read anything written by a professional academic.

I've been really interested in reading the posts on this site as there seems to be such tension between native and non-native English speakers. I know several ESL speakers who write 'standard English' as well as, and often better than, natives but (and this seems to be the big differentiator) they have all been educated from an early age using this particular written form. Spoken English (in all its varieties) is of little help to those who wish to write professionally in English in any context, and especially academically - as it's so different and formal compared to the huge variety of spoken versions. It's an accident of birth whether you had access to this type of early education but very difficult to learn/adopt by the time you reach college age.

The issue that doesn't appear to feature as much here (which surprises me) is knowledge of subject. Being able to write standard, academic English is one thing, but what really matters is the writer's knowledge of a subject and his/her ability to comment/narrate/describe/analyse. A well-written paper reveals much more about knowledge of subject than one that is poorly written as it removes ambiguity, and a poorly-written paper which demonstrates subject insight will always be better received than a well-written load of trash.

Also, little is mentioned re: how much work is involved in research. Even if you know your subject well, the particularity of topic for most model papers requires research at anything other than basic undergrad level, and that takes time (lots of time for highest grades and/or highest college levels).

As I said previously, I'm thinking about dipping my toe into the 'professional' waters once I've completed my MA this summer and this site has been very helpful in pointing me toward the reputable agencies. To be honest, they seem to be in the minority and are exclusively US or UK-based, so it's a case of buyer/writer beware. Also, I think that only the very best writers would be able to make a decent income from this (and they are also easily identified here). You write well, have you considered trying this too?

Fair enough, but what about the native-English hacks? There seem to be sufficient numbers of these to require intervention on behalf of their consumers too. You may say (and I would agree evidenced by the posts here) that the majority of hacks fall into the ESL category, but anyone who uses their services needs more than a reality check. The native-Es have their credibility universally reinforced by the amount of pro-ESL/anti-ESL rhetoric here (especially as the anti-ESL sentiment is expressed most eloquently by the best of this writer community), and that suggests you may be contributing to consumer vulnerability where the native-E hacks are concerned.

I have seen hack native-E writers/perspective writers challenged/exposed here but it pales into insignificance compared to the air time allocated to the ESLs (who, let's face it, are a weak target judging from what I've seen). I assume that Native-E hacks are more difficult to locate/expose than ESLs, but doesn't that suggest your (well-qualified) efforts should be targeted in their direction?


Erm... I think you have single-handedly damaged the credibility of ESL writers more here in the couple of posts I read than the collective efforts of WB, Pheelyx, et al (look it up) could achieve in a decade.

'Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than speak out and confirm it'.

As you see, I never assume. When I hedge I make that explicit. Don't you?

Yes, that's expressed frequently, and I understand the frustration of those who don't misrepresent themselves toward those who do. Especially so when the middle-men are exploiting people across the demand/supply chain. It's not clear how many of the ESL people here are writers affiliated with charlatan agencies, and how many just operate these agencies or market themselves independently, but I guess my scorn is reserved for the latter, and my pity for the former. Their contract conditions and pay seem truly appalling so it's hardly surprising that they are desperate to access a system which provides fair contract terms for writers at a cost driven by US/UK market forces. It's a shame that their appreciation of the skills needed to access these markets are far less than their awareness of the benefits.

I read an exchange between you and an Eastern European agency with which you were once affiliated. What struck me wasn't simply the examples of the ridiculous expectations imposed on the writers (a 2-hour response required in the middle of the night, being fined without due process or cause), but that the agency rep. thought this was perfectly reasonable. Stunned!

This site has been really useful in many ways, not least at providing reality checks for those, like me, who are considering the possibility of joining the bun fight at some point. It's certainly been worthwhile and has answered questions and dispelled illusions in equal measure. Anyone who thinks academic writing is an easy money-maker after researching this site is obviously in denial or deluded.

WB: Where I have assumed anything, you will note that I have made it explicit thus paving the way to have any such assumption contradicted/explained, which is exactly the response I received from Pheelyx. I did not assume, in fact I conceded, that I have seen native-English writers challenged on this site, but was interested in why the forum focuses so much on exposing ESLs. I have no position to defend, or experience to support, any debate on these issues - I'm simply seeking information which will either confirm/contradict my impressions. However, if I was seeking a debate, rest assured that I would never resort to personal attack or cussing as a means of expression. It's ineffective as a form of persuasion, and deters others from participation. Of course it's your prerogative to express yourself as you wish, as it is mine to choose not to respond.

(*laughs)
That prospect is too terrifying to contemplate.


I had to smile at this. I've also spent a reasonable time in France but have no experience of the education system. However, given the antipathy toward the English language demonstrated by the vast majority of French people, I'm amazed they are concerned with niceties like 'BBC English'. I'm trying to picture you being forced to read Harry Potter in a 'BBC' British accent (*laughs loudly) - only the French could dream that one up.

Did you know that they actually have government-enforced quotas to restrict the amount of English language content in broadcasting? UK/US music/film/TV are all subject to this quota. Language protectionism gone mad!

Interestingly, the college campuses here are so overtly class-conscious these days that the mere mention of the term 'BBC English' is enough to raise the heckles of Humanities professors. Accents are definitely not an issue for English-language students.


Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I completely agree, and my 'accident of birth' comment applies equally to both native and ESL. As an undergrad, my professors were always lamenting the dismal standard of written English demonstrated by their students. If even college students are unable to make the grade, it suggests that our schools are failing to provide the levels of literacy expected/required by employers. Like you, I also proof-read work to help other students and was amazed that so many had managed the UK equivalent of High School graduation with such poor levels of written English. Even acquiring a degree (in any subject) is no guarantee of decent literacy skills it seems.

Maybe this (diminishing?) standard of written English contributes to a different marking emphasis here? This is very much anecdotal evidence, but high standards of literacy only appear mandatory in order to achieve the highest college grades. The vast majority of students here achieve a '2.i' despite many having very mediocre writing skills. The range of aptitude covered by this grade is now so wide that it detriments those who achieve at the top of that range. Several of my friends fell into this category, and were pretty resentful that, despite regularly achieving top grades, the algorithm for overall degree calculation left them categorised with students who were far less able (and hard-working).


Love your use of understatement. There's a very different 'power' dynamic between supplier-client and teacher-student so I appreciate your meaning.


At least you're sufficiently self-aware to be able to assess your suitability for this kind of work. I don't share those specific attributes, but I am a bit too perfectionist (anal?) and, therefore, not too sure I would be able to deliver within the timescales expected by this industry. They seem pretty short to me. I don't doubt my ability to write something of a decent standard at junior college levels within those timescales, but an original, 3,000-word, first-class senior paper would take me much, MUCH longer than 5 days, and a 5,000-word MA paper of 'merit' standard (let alone 'distinction') would require weeks, not days. I admire anyone who could pull that off.


... and mine is in American history, literature and politics. My MA is in American Literature. I'm not sure what this says about us as individuals but, given our respective nationalities, this is an interesting coincidence. :)

Correctly reasoned. Which reminds me of a recent incident of ultra-PC-ness on the use of gender. I was seriously patronised by a faculty member for daring to gender a nation! I doubt the nation concerned would object to this particular linguistic peculiarity but it was decent of the academic (female) to be so concerned for its identity (*sarcasm). I couldn't resist the obvious retort though. 'How do the French cope?' :) First time I've seen her speechless (a relief in this particular case).


It sounds like it was - from their perspective.


Which, of course, bears no relationship to how employers recruit. Considering individual differences are the essence of how human society operates, this attempt to homogenise is misplaced and counter-productive. I've noted that job applications are becoming increasingly complex and prescriptive as a way of differentiating between people. It now takes a day to accommodate personal statements and accompanying letters, in addition to a multiple-page application form.


A great example of individual difference as there is no way I could ever imagine reaching that level of output. Procrastination and distraction: the banes of my existence. Today, when I should have been focusing on H.L. Mencken, within 10 minutes I was checking out how to remove bees from a chimney!


A wise person knows when to withdraw gracefully in defeat :)


Thanks for that. Obviously the ability to communicate in writing is also subject to the ability of the reader to note all the constructs of a sentence. In spoken language it's easier to be understood given the advantage of tone, expression and body language.


I suspected that was the case, which makes the 'accident of birth' advantage even more poignant.

Where are you miki? and Ishy: how long were you living in France?

Hey, the 'university of life' is the best of all experiences in teens/twenties (and often later). Sounds like you could write a book :) I much enjoyed reading about your European adventures.

The 'Pacific Northwest' sounds like Oregon or Washington. This is one of the areaa of the US still missing from my list, but definitely features highly on 'next to visit'. I lived in Chicago for a while.... and then in the South for a few years, but have been fortunate to spend time in other regions - just missing the far North East and your region.

Sounds like you're a Europhile. My family had a holiday home in South-West France for twenty years (just outside Bergerac) and I love much about French culture and history, but I have problems with the bureaucracy. I'm not used to the inefficiency of the French systems, and they were still struggling with email as a standard form of communication years after the internet was adopted in the UK/US (and elsewhere). I'm not a fluent French speaker but can get by with the average bureaucrat (luckily). I still own some land there and may get around to doing something with it when I eventually recover from my last run-in with the ridiculous French system of planning.

The last time I was in Paris I ended up being chased by a crazed drug addict in Montmartre - not something which falls within my usual holiday experience - and have been a tad reluctant to venture back since. Comsidering my 'offence' appeared to be sitting at a pavement cafe with friends, I was a bit discombobulated. But, then again, this is the only city I know where you can buy cooked quail and champagne from a pharmacy at 3 a.m. !

Glad to hear your previous experience didn't deter you from pursuing the Euro-US 'entente cordiale'. My former husband was American so I also appreciate international relations (in the wider context) - one of the more positive aspects of globalisation.

I expect we'll still be here when you're ready to venture across the Atlantic again :) Well, assuming the danged Eurozone resolves its current.... erm.... 'difficulties'.

By the way, halibut and tartare sauce sounds deliicious, but much too 'posh' by British fish 'n' chips standards. As you know, we're reared on cod with chunky chips and ketchup.... the fresher the better.