Posts by Programming

Programming

Oct 02, 2018

General Talk / Upwork Review (Programming Project / Hourly Payment) - Bad Freelancer / Payment Disputed [18]

Here are the final parts of my Upwork dispute story for a web development project ("Hourly contract"). To summarize the below information:

- I received a partial refund from my credit card, but Upwork suspended my account.

- When replying to a dispute inquiry to my bank, Upwork employees lied about the whole situation; they would even try to persuade the bank that by closing the contract, I admitted that the job was successfully completed - in fact, I closed the contract to prevent the fraudulent programmer from subsequent charging my card, nothing else. They would also misrepresent my other statements, taking them totally out of context or omitting the most important facts via selective screenshots to try to prove their own false points. For example, they lied that I have never requested a refund from the freelancer, but my screenshot proved I did. Fortunately, my credit card didn't fall for that but it is possible that Upwork's lies have negatively affected my standing with them.

- Upwork admitted that they would not change the worker's classification status for tax purposes, even if explicitly asked.

- Upwork REMOVED my review, without informing me. Now soon-to-be victims can only see the following message: "This feedback has been removed." Hint - if you see this message near the profile, it may suggest that Upwork and freelancer decided it would be in their best financial interest to remove the feedback from public view because the money they are going to make on you, even if you get defrauded, are still worth it.

- Upwork will release your full name, phone numbers, and private residency address to the scammer who defrauded you. That beats everything, doesn't it? They would not post their own full names when you correspond with them, but they have no problems releasing your full information, full names, and your real physical address location to the ones who scammed you. If you are in a similar situation, you MUST explicitly tell them NOT TO RELEASE your information - if you don't, they will conveniently assume you agreed to it despite it being illegal for them to do it.

- Upwork has unlimited and real-time access to your "live chats" and all your correspondence between you and "freelancer." Whatever you post on their platform can and will be used against you. If they cannot use your statements in full because they would contradict their stories, they would take them apart and / or out of context to produce a new "fact."

- A freelancer working on hourly basis on your project can make random mouse movements for 10 hours that produces nothing meaningful, and you (Client / Buyer) will be charged for full 10 hours only because the mouse movements have been "recorded" by their system and qualify for full payment.

Conclusion: NEVER ever hire a worker through Upwork on an hourly basis - it is a scam and you will pay for it one way or another. Freelancers know it is a scam and take advantage of sucker Clients, Upwork knows it is a scam and continue offering it to make money; the only ones who may not know it are Buyers who sponsor it all for their own money.

Overall, I'm still shocked how Upwork (formerly "Odesk") would treat paying customers. Their replies clearly suggest that they deal with scammed customers like myself on daily basis and they have come up with adequate methods of threatening and intimidating them through all - both legal and illegal - means.

MY FINAL CORRESPONDENCE WITH UPWORK

Buyer July 20, 2018 11:14

Based on the legal User Agreement, Upwork is "not a party to the relationship or any dealings between Client and Freelancer." If that is the case, why does Upwork argue that the worker has completed the job when in fact the job paid for was not completed? From the evidence provided to my bank, it strongly appears Upwork acts as if the "freelancer" was Upwork's employee and a party to the business relationship between the Client and Freelancer. It can be concluded that Upwork violates its own agreement as listed below. Besides, Upwork actively promotes some freelancers by assigning them "TOP RATED" scores and badges.

Please explain. Reference: From: /legal#useragreement

2.1 2.1 RELATIONSHIP WITH UPWORK

Upwork merely makes the Site and Site Services available to enable Freelancers and Clients to find and transact directly with each other.

You acknowledge, agree, and understand that Upwork is not a party to the relationship or any dealings between Client and Freelancer.

Question - what happens if I determine the freelancer in question should have been treated as an employee, not a 'contractor'? I understand you will have to withhold 30% of his payment; anything else?

Cheryl July 23, 2018 11:50

Hello,

We provide a platform for clients to hire a freelancer for contract work. To determine if your job should be set up an employee job, you would need to contact your legal team to discuss the related requirements.

Best,

Cheryl

Buyer, July 23, 2018 11:57

Assume that my "legal team" has determined that the freelancer in question should have been treated as a W-2 employee (not a W-9 contractor). How would you go about changing his status from your default W-9 to W-2? I assume you would have to withhold 30% of his earnings; is there anything else I as Client would have to do in this scenario?

Cheryl July 23, 2018 12:10

Should a client wish to employ a user for a job they can use our Payroll service. You can review here- upwork.com/i/payroll-client/

Determining if a person should be employed or not is the responsibility of the client/company. We provide a service that allows users to meet and get work done. We do not control work or contracts.

Again, all options have been exhausted regarding this issue.

Cheryl

Buyer - July 23, 2018 12:14

Are you suggesting that it's impossible for the Client to to change the worker's status from W-9 to W-2 after the job has been completed?

In this case it was not completed but that's another issue.

I just need to know ONE thing: can the Client on your platform change the worker's status from W-9 to W-2 after the job has been completed?

Yes OR No.

Cheryl - July 23, 2018 12:34

No, we can not do that.

Cheryl

Buyer - July 23, 2018 13:24

Ok thank you for your reply. I apparently wrongly assumed your company would follow the law and withhold 30% of the employee's payment (especially that you hold up to $1000 of their money anyway), but that's not the case.

Cheryl - August 13, 2018 13:31

Hello,

As a client you chose to contract with a freelancer directly using the service of Upwork. As a contractor, freelancers are responsible for the handling of their own taxes.

You already released funds to the freelancer which are no longer in the control of Upwork. "Backdating" an agreed contract with a freelancer on the platform is not possible.

Regards,

Cheryl

Buyer - August 13, 2018 15:01

Hello, obviously your interpretation is different from the official one and it needs a little more time to research. When creating a job, there is not even a mention about worker classification for Clients and all created jobs are - by default - on Contract basis. It's impossible to change that on this page.

P.S. maybe you'll be able to reach out to the person who responds to disputes for a possible resolution?

I certainly don't appreciate lies or blatant interpretations posted as a reply (for example that I "marked" the contract as "Completed" when we know for a fact that your system automatically marks all contracts as "Completed" and not mentioning that I checked that the project was not completed). Or that I "continued working with the Freelancer" which was not the case at all.

Unless we prefer to go on and waste our time and resources forever (my bank says there are no limits as far as reopening dispute inquires when the service was not provided - as it was in my case). You protect the person who took advantage of your system, took my money, and lied to me to buy more time and put me (and Upwork) in this position. I cannot throw away 1.5K for nothing, but I hope we'll behave as adults and try to work it out.

Cheryl - August 15, 2018 09:38

Hello,

We have exhausted all options, we consider this issue resolved to the fullest extent possible.

I wish you the best,

Cheryl

---

My Feedback to Freelancer (removed by Upwork without my consent from public view)

I do NOT recommend this programmer; he has turned out to be nothing short of a scam artist.

There have been so many problems with the project that it had to be cancelled and dispute started. The following is a summary of the issues:

- Starts a projects and never fully finishes even the small parts. Keeps you waiting for weeks and never follows through his promises to work on the project (not to mention complete it and fix numerous bugs or add a new working feature).

- Takes on new orders (abandoning yours) and after keeping you waited for weeks claims he has no time to complete your project and fix bugs (despite having been paid to do so).

- Programming code he uses is overly complicated, not working, not what you would expect for the money paid. Whenever you try to test something produced by this "programmer" - you would find numerous bugs and end up writing pages describing the problems (that would be ignored and never fixed by him anyway).

- Uses libraries that should never be used for such small things.

- No sense of website security; he would leave critical setup files with usernames and passwords to databases available to the public without any protection from public access.

- Charges manual hours for something that should not have been charged.

At first, he may appear as a legitimate programmer (he has enough programming knowledge to persuade you that he is legitimate), until you start questioning his charging for weekly invoices that produce nothing useful. When you challenge him, he promises to "keep working on it" and in the end refuses to fix his own bugs or complete parts that have already been paid. He seems to be on constant lookout for potential new customers to start new projects, charge them for initial and not-working code, and move on to defraud the next victim. If you request money back (for the things that have clearly been not delivered), he would threaten you to contact "authorities."

If you are an honest webmaster, do not even consider this "programmer" because you will waste a lot of time and money in exchange for useless piece of buggy code, stress, and frustration.

I would not be surprised that most of the previous "good" reviews of this "programmer" have been made under pressure of threats or simply as a way to move on and forget about the nightmare experience.

---

NOW UPWORK SUSPENDS MY ACCOUNT

Stephanie B - August 20, 2018 10:49

Hello,

We are writing today to let you know that your account has been temporarily suspended because your credit card company has reversed a payment.

This is in regards to the following charge made to your credit card.

Due to the payment reversal, at this time there is a balance due on your Upwork account.

Please know that if this payment was reversed in error and you would like to resolve the negative balance, all you need to do is reply to this email and authorize us to process the balance due at this time. We will then reprocess the payment (including processing fee) and, if it is successful, reinstate your account within one business day.

We also ask that before you submit a request for a payment reversal (also known as a chargeback) in the future, please review section 6.5 of the Upwork Terms of Service by clicking here.

This freelancer has been in touch with us to request your contact information. We recommend to communicate with them directly to address any outstanding issues or concerns they may have as soon as possible.

Per the Upwork Privacy Policy, Upwork clients and freelancers entering into a contract with one another may request the contact information of the other party, including name, company name, phone number, and mailing address. We will review and make a decision regarding this request in 48 hours. At that time we may decide to release the requested information. Please reply to this ticket directly if you are able to resolve the matter when you communicate with them, or if you have any further information you wish to be included in our review.

-------------

If you have any questions or need additional assistance, please don't hesitate to reach out.

Regards,

Stephanie | Chargeback SR Specialist

Buyer - August 20, 2018 13:37

Regarding releasing my contact information, I DO NOT WANT and DO NOT AGREE Upwork to release this information to this suspicious Freelancer because I fear both physical and emotional retaliation from him (and/or from whoever he may know to live in the US). If you release my contact information to him, you will be legally liable for any physical or emotional damage made to me or to whoever lives under the physical address.

I tried to contact this freelancer, but all he is interested in is retaliation as he replied: "I contacted Upwork for your address and full name to contact authorities about your activity."

Despite the refund, he still made hundreds of dollars on this contract because I have not, do not, and will not use whatever this freelancer produced. I have zero use of that.

So, again, please consider these facts that can be easily established:

1. I paid for work that was not completed and have no use of the produced work (it can be verified that I do not and will not use the work).

2. Despite #1, as a goodwill gesture, I have not contested all the amount paid.

3. I have done nothing wrong. The paid services have not been rendered, so I followed Upwork's official channels to contact the freelancer and request a refund. It didn't result in any solution, so I legally contacted my bank to reverse the charges. I followed all protocols as required by their terms.

In result, as a U.S. citizen, I DO NOT CONSENT to releasing my information to this foreign national from the hostile country. Based on this person's past actions and responses, I have reasonable grounds to believe that this person will try to:

- intimidate,
- harass,
- libel,
- stress,
- do any other physical, financial, or emotional harm as a retaliation to my reasonable and lawful actions.

Your releasing my information would directly allow him to do all these actions listed above to violate my privacy and potentially harm me or my business.

Thank you for your understanding.

Stephanie B - August 21, 2018 19:26

Hello,

I'm very sorry that you feel this way and I would be happy to ensure that you understand more about how our platform works.

Upwork provides the necessary tools for clients to manage their contracts safely with their freelancers. With over 17 million cumulative registered Users, none of which are within Upwork's control, it's unfortunately not possible for us to vet or guarantee Freelancers or their work (or clients or their ability to pay, for that matter).

For this reason, we emphasize repeatedly in our User Agreement that Upwork is a venue for buyers and sellers of services to directly connect, that Upwork does not supervise, control or endorse Freelancers, that Upwork is not responsible for Freelancers or their work, and that Clients are responsible for selecting and vetting their own workers. (See User Agreement, Â§Â§ 4, 8, 10, 13.1, 16, 17.) upwork.com/legal/

With Hourly contracts it is important that clients review the work diary weekly and require freelancers to submit work on a regular basis. Clients should require freelancers to commit code regularly or work in shared drives to ensure that you always have the latest version of any work being performed.

Upwork does not manage contracts, the client is responsible for maintaining communication with the freelancer and pausing the contract should they fail to deliver work. Unless a dispute is filed during the weekly review period, funds are released as scheduled to the freelancer. Once those funds are removed from the platform they can no longer be recovered. At this time we are unable to provide a refund as there are no funds available in your freelancer's account.

Please keep in mind that the Upwork Payment Protection guidelines and processes are all part of the terms of service that members agree to when registering accounts. Clients have a responsibility under those guidelines to understand our payment policies and it clearly states that on hourly projects, you must file a dispute within the 5 day dispute period and that only hours that do not qualify for payment protection can be refunded. Any hours that qualify for payment protection will not require a refund.

Best Regards,

Stephanie | Chargeback SR Specialist

Programming

Jul 18, 2018

General Talk / Upwork Review (Programming Project / Hourly Payment) - Bad Freelancer / Payment Disputed [18]

The story continues. They have basically closed the support ticket now after I told them I will not pay anything more to the scammer (they did suggest that!). They have colluded with this "programmer" who scammed me for 2K. I don't believe it is the end, will update more later once more information is gathered.

-------

Cheryl Friday at 09:53

Hello Buyer,

Thank you for your patience. I have been speaking with the freelancer trying to find an option to help resolve the problems.

Would you be open to setting up a very clear and defined scope of work to complete the project with a predetermined fixed price to complete?

Thanks,

Cheryl

Buyer Friday at 10:11

The problem is, when I looked into the code and showed it to another potential programmer, we concluded that it's overly complicated, many parts were just started but never finished, it uses libraries of frameworks that only complicate things and require more than one programmer to fix or work on it. Trying to fix it and completing all started things would add to the point that I'd have to pay another 1K or more and then be stuck with this programmer forever (or pay two other programmers, again, to research it and continue). When you get burned once, you don't want to go back to the same river. Paying him anything more would - again - end up with me waiting months, getting things not done, and paying on top of that.

AND EVEN IF everything went smooth, when he would 'fix' things then he could not be forced to fix bugs that would be found later or add new features. Then, I'd have to find a new programmer anyway (you won't guarantee me that he's going to work with me in the future). This programmer thinks that he is entitled to working at least 40 hrs a week - if he doesn't, he would drop your project and find someone else as it was in my case.

So thank you for trying to resolve it, but like with your former spouse, some things are beyond repair and you just don't want to deal with the person any more after months of promises and failures..

I have started this project anew with a new programmer (with fixed price). The old programmer can take the current code and do whatever he wants with it; it's not what I expected it to be and now what I paid for.

Regards,

Buyer

Buyer Saturday at 17:20

The issue is not resolved, but I'm going to close the contract to prevent this freelancer from fraudulent charging manual hours. I still hope we can come to mutual and satisfactory agreement.

Cheryl Monday at 14:31

Hello Buyer,

We have two options, either find a new freelancer and move forward. We will not be able to apply any further account adjustments.

The 2nd is to work with the original freelancer so the current work can be used. His response was, "I can finish the project if I have clear specification with defined scope of work. The only thing is that I can start only on August 6th. For price estimation I need to know what exactly I need to do."

Please let me know which option you would like to peruse.

Best,

Cheryl

Buyer Monday at 14:39

Hello Cheryl.. I cannot pay HIM anything more after the experience; he gets paid and never delivers what was paid. Plus the quality of his work is not acceptable to me after another programmer has reviewed what he has produced. For what I paid him it should be done feature and quality-wise as instructed, but it was not. I'm shocked he would even mention a new "price estimation" at this point.

As I said, the only viable option would be that he covers AT LEAST the cost of the first part for the new programmer (estimate: $650-$800). You can tell him that (if he agrees, I'd even agree to cancel my review and we can move in peace with our lives).

Thank you. Buyer

Buyer Monday at 23:10

And - hopefully it was not you who accused me of acting in "bad faith" when responding to my bank? I did not act in "bad faith" - I have never been scammed this way in my life and you still accuse me of acting in "bad faith"?

Why would you try to discredit me?

Also, someone responded that I admitted that the "first part was completed." It is not true at all; I only suggested that the only reasonable option would be to complete this part for the 2K I had already wasted for nothing.

Why do you act like that?

Cheryl Today at 12:54

Hello Buyer,

The platform is not set up for a freelancer to pay another user and is not meant for such. It appears that at this point all of our options have been exhausted.

I wish you the best on your project.

Regards,

Cheryl

Upwork Executive Escalations

Programming

Jul 14, 2018

General Talk / Upwork Review (Programming Project / Hourly Payment) - Bad Freelancer / Payment Disputed [18]

I will check all your suggestions out, thank you.

Programming

Jul 14, 2018

General Talk / Upwork Review (Programming Project / Hourly Payment) - Bad Freelancer / Payment Disputed [18]

What's interesting, on their Terms of Service page they claim that "Upwork does not guarantee the performance, functionality, quality, or timeliness of Freelancer Services." If / since that is the case, they have no business, knowledge, or skill to judge the quality or performance of their "freelancers" when answering the claim. Attached below is my response.

Upwork Terms and Service Responsiblity

It was a programming project, but I have no reason to believe that the process would work the same for students who consider hiring a freelance writer on their platform. I'm in the process of finding a new programmer to complete at least the first part of the job. The case is still open; I'll try to update this review and share the findings once I get more information.

Programming

Jul 14, 2018

General Talk / Upwork Review (Programming Project / Hourly Payment) - Bad Freelancer / Payment Disputed [18]

I have to take my words about Upwork being honest back. Above - see "Buyer Thursday at 10:26" - I wrote to their Support to suggest that I have at least the first part completed for the money I paid to complete the full project. I wrote to them: "... My final proposed solution: ... 2. I have this first part of the project completed: --- {link-to-project-DESCRIPTION}." and provided link to project description.

They responded to the dispute inquiry and wrote to the credit card with straight face:

"The cardholder states the first part of the project was completed."

But it is totally UNTRUE. They have maliciously taken my words out of context and logic to prove their invalid point. The REAL point was that I wanted to have AT LEAST the first part completed for the money I paid for completion of THE WHOLE PROJECT. I paid almost $2K and received no real value in return. That's why I suggested: I estimate that completing of the first part by a new programmer would cost the amount I dispute; if they (Upwork) can pay for completion of this part (at least), I would cancel all payment disputes. Otherwise I just cannot pay $2K for NOTHING.

In effect, there are two more conclusions about Upwork operations:

1. When you correspond with Upwork support person, keep in mind that whatever you write to them WILL be used against you.

2. If they cannot use what you have written against you, they would still try to lie about it to prove their imaginary point, even if logic and facts claim otherwise.

Programming

Jul 09, 2018

General Talk / Upwork Review (Programming Project / Hourly Payment) - Bad Freelancer / Payment Disputed [18]

The following is my "journey" with Upwork and their programming / web development freelancer. In summary, I posted a programming project (hourly payment), the hired programmer started the job but never finished it. I've patiently waited for weeks for him to finish the project and fix the bugs. He never did. So I was forced to dispute some of the charges (I could dispute them all). Anyway, it's still in progress but this information may help other students who may consider using Upwork for their writing or programming assignments. From my experience, they should never hire a freelancer on an hourly basis - fixed pricing ONLY. Or else, they can get scammed.

This review is not meant as a bash against Upwork as the company; they have actually done what they could and even offered full refund for their own commission --- so from that perspective, they are legitimate as a service provider. EXCEPT for one issue - they seem to protect contractors, even if it is clear that they are unreliable or suspicious. The problem are some of their freelancers who try to take advantage of the system and inexperienced or naive buyers.

I still hope to resolve it in a positive way - if not directly with Upwork and their freelancer then with my bank.

---

Programming Project

Request #214*****

Chat: Contract ID#192*****

Buyer June 29, 2018 11:51

Chat started: 2018-06-29 04:24 PM UTC

(04:24:12 PM) Buyer: We got disconnected again?

(04:24:14 PM) Upwork: Hello! Thank you for contacting Upwork. One moment please, and an agent will be right with you.

(04:24:22 PM) *** Krizia joined the chat ***

(04:24:33 PM) Krizia : Hi Buyer!

(04:24:40 PM) Buyer: From Raymond:

(04:24:49 PM) Krizia : Nice to meet you! My name is Krizia.

(04:24:59 PM) Buyer: Yes.. hopefully we won't get disconnected.

(04:25:19 PM) Krizia : I'm sorry to hear that your chat got disconnected. I'll do my best to help you on your concern today!

(04:25:36 PM) Buyer: Another support person wrote:

Raymond
Thank you for waiting.

I understand that you wish to get a partial refund from a freelancer. To check on this, may I please have the freelancer's name?

(04:26:06 PM) Buyer: I replied: //link-to-freelancer-profile//

(04:26:10 PM) Krizia : Thanks for that info.

(04:26:14 PM) Buyer: OK..

(04:26:18 PM) Krizia : Kindly hold for 3-5 minutes while I check this for you. One moment please.

(04:26:22 PM) Buyer: OK

(04:27:39 PM) Buyer: So what is completed is useless to me - he can take it. Normally I'd want full refund but because I'm not an ass** I'd pay him for some of his time and take it as an experience.

(04:28:36 PM) Buyer: I expect a new programmer would take at least $1200 to do it so that's what I'm for.

(04:32:32 PM) Krizia : Thanks for waiting.

(04:32:56 PM) Krizia : To confirm, you can't use the work submitted by Freelancer?

(04:33:20 PM) Buyer: I can't - he can take it, delete it or whatever (he still has access to the server).

(04:33:46 PM) Krizia : I know where you're coming from and how frustrating that must be.

(04:34:02 PM) Buyer: It is..

(04:34:24 PM) Krizia : Also, you've tried to request a refund and he disregarded it?

(04:35:05 PM) Buyer: Well, I requested partial refund from your website and he wrote: "Please contact upwork support to resolve this situation."

(04:36:32 PM) Krizia : Thanks for that info. May I please know the amount of the partial refund you've requested from him?

(04:36:33 PM) Buyer: + he added: "If they decide I should not be paid for this project I sure return the money, otherwise I earned them."

(04:37:41 PM) Buyer: 4 invoices, total: 1216.55

(04:37:53 PM) Krizia : Thank you.

(04:39:21 PM) Buyer: He told me he'd work on it, I waited for 2+ months (not wanting to rush him), and finally I decided I cannot wait any longer.

(04:39:44 PM) Buyer: Maybe that was his plan to buy time or something..

(04:40:57 PM) Krizia : I'd be upset, too, if that happened to me.

(04:41:18 PM) Krizia : Typically, when you hire for an hourly-rate contract, you agree to pay for the time spent working on the tasks associated with the contract, and not for any specific deliverable or results-based quality of work. Once a timesheet is paid, the funds have been forwarded to the Freelancer and they can no longer be recovered unless the Freelancer agrees to issue a refund.

(04:41:36 PM) Krizia : If you prefer to not be automatically billed each week, you do have the option to use a fixed-price contract rather than an hourly one. With fixed-price contracts, you pay an agreed upon price for work completed and the Freelancer will not be required to track their hours.

(04:41:38 PM) Buyer: Well I'm an amateur programmer to so I didn't want to put pressure on him, but my understanding is that he got a better deal with another company and just didn't care about my project.

(04:41:53 PM) Krizia : I totally understand.

(04:43:05 PM) Krizia : To be honest, the dispute period for this contract has passed already. The Client review period runs from Monday at 12 noon UTC following the close of the billing period until Friday at 23:59 UTC. This is your time to review the Work Diary and file a dispute if there is a problem.

(04:43:08 PM) Buyer: When you hire someone, you expect to complete the project according to your specifications. That didn't happen. You cannot use a car without a steering wheel. That's why I tried to be reasonable, to cover some of his work.

(04:43:08 PM) Krizia : However, be assured that I'll look for other options on how we can assist you. It could take up to 24-48 hours for me to give you an update. In the meantime, I appreciate your patience, and I look forward to helping you resolve your issue.

(04:43:30 PM) Buyer: Yes ok..

(04:43:45 PM) Buyer: So you'll email me, you have my email?

(04:43:56 PM) Krizia : Yes, got your point, Buyer.
e
(04:44:05 PM) Krizia : A ticket will be generated after this chat session and you will receive a copy of this chat transcript in your email address linked to your Upwork account.

(04:44:20 PM) Buyer: Good, thank you.. please generate this ticket then.

(04:45:45 PM) Krizia : You're always welcome!

(04:45:50 PM) Krizia : This is the ticket link: ***

(04:46:01 PM) Buyer: Thank you - so that's all for now?

(04:46:12 PM) Krizia : The chat transcript will be appended after the chat is ended.

(04:46:17 PM) Buyer: I see it..

(04:46:26 PM) Krizia : Do you have other concerns that you would like to be addressed?

(04:46:38 PM) Buyer: So I should wait for 1-2 days?

(04:46:57 PM) Krizia : Yes, please. Thank you.

(04:47:11 PM) Buyer: Ok thank you.. I'll wait please update me then. Bye..

(04:48:26 PM) Krizia : You are so welcome. By the way, you may visit this help article below to learn more about the difference between hourly and fixed-price jobs.

(04:48:27 PM) Krizia : Hourly vs. Fixed-Price Contract Differences

support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211063418-Hourly-vs-Fixed-Price-Contract-Differences

(04:48:36 PM) Buyer: OK thank you..

(04:48:40 PM) Krizia : It was a pleasure assisting you! If you need further assistance or experience any additional issues, please visit us back using this link and one of our team members will be more than happy to help. Take care and have a great day!

(04:48:49 PM) Buyer: OK bye.

(04:51:06 PM) *** Krizia left the chat ***

Krizia June 30, 2018 17:24

Hi Buyer,

Thanks for your patience while we review your concerns. I am happy to provide you with some more information.

Each Freelancer on Upwork is a small business owner, and Clients engage them directly to perform services. Upwork does not employ or vet these Freelancers. For this reason, we emphasize repeatedly in our User Agreement that Upwork is a venue for buyers and sellers of services to directly connect, that Upwork does not supervise, control or endorse Freelancers, that Upwork is not responsible for Freelancers or their work, and that Clients are responsible for selecting and vetting their own workers. (See Upwork Terms of Service).

It sounds as if a fixed-price project would be more suited if you would like to have more discretion over when funds are released. With fixed-price projects, funds are held in escrow until the work is completed and reviewed for accuracy. Please refer to this Help article for more information, Hourly vs. Fixed-Price Contract Differences.

Please note that hourly jobs are paid specifically based on the hours worked and recorded by the Freelancer; work quality and specific deliverables are not considered in the payment for these projects. Clients are responsible for reviewing the work diaries each week to ensure that their Freelancers are on task. Please note that it is the Client's responsibility to manage their contracts as well as monitor the progress and quality of the work provided. If you find that the Freelancer is not working according to your job requirements, you are free to end the contract at any time.

If you wish to dispute hours logged by your Freelancer, you must do so within the 5 day review period. Once a Freelancer's time sheet has been paid, Upwork is not permitted to make a refund without the permission of your Freelancer. You can find more information here, Dispute a Freelancer's Hours.

Moreover, we see that you approved the hourly payments to this Freelancer through the duration of the contract. If there's no dispute filed during the Client review period which happens after each work week, it implies that work has been reviewed and deemed acceptable. I apologize again as a refund will be at the Freelancers discretion.

In your case, we still encourage you to work with your Freelancer to a mutually agreeable resolution. We realize that this has caused disruption to your business, and we would like to help put your project back on track. To assist you in moving forward we would also like to provide recruiting assistance from our Talent Services Team. Our Talent Services Representative can help you find a new Freelancer to complete your project. To book an appointment with them, kindly click this link and select an available slot.

Lastly, to make it up to you and for the inconvenience caused, we'd like to grant $100 credit to your Upwork account that you may use in paying future Freelancers on Upwork. If you accept this offer, kindly confirm by responding in this ticket so we can process this credit right away.

If there is anything I can help you with, please don't hesitate to respond to this email. I'm happy to be of assistance or answer any additional questions you may have. Have a nice day!

Regards,

Krizia

Upwork Client Support | support.upwork.com

Buyer June 30, 2018 17:40

I do not agree with that. The freelancer has clearly stated that he took more work and didn't care about finishing of my project. At this point, he can start 10 projects and NEVER finish any of them; just start them and take money for it.

I have an agreement with Amex - in this case, I'm going to contact them and chargeback all invalid transactions. I paid for nothing and this is not the right solution.

Regards,

Buyer

Buyer June 30, 2018 17:51

The agreement between me and Upwork / the freelancer was to start and finish the project. He started it, then has done no work for the last 3 months. At the start of May he wrote that he's busy until May 21 and then he'll finish it; he never did. So it is not my fault that I "waited" = I wanted to give him benefit of the doubt that he's going to finish. When I contacted him again yesterday, he wrote:

"I can not rely solely on one project, so I plan my work and currently I don't have time for your project."

So he takes a new project DESPITE THE FACT HE HASN'T FINISHED the old one. And he clearly says he doen't have time or will for my project.

Again, I cannot use the project as it is. I cannot pay for nothing.

Buyer June 30, 2018 18:02

So please let me know your final decision; I can wait till Monday, thank you.

Buyer June 30, 2018 18:04

BTW - you collude with dishonest freelancers because you allow them to accept new projects (probably an unlimited number of them) even if they have still unfinished projects. Similar agencies will NOT allow that to prevent situations like that. And you try to protect such dishonest freelancers. I don't understand it, but that's your business model.

Again, please let me know if your decision is final.

Buyer June 30, 2018 18:09

BTW 2 - if this freelancer was HONEST, he would NOT write this to me: "I don't have time for your project" AFTER 3 MONTHS (!) of MY WAITING. I hope you understand this is frustrating - he just doesn't care, so why should I care.

Buyer July 01, 2018 08:59

Yesterday I contacted the freelancer again to suggest that we should resolve it peacefully. He's been online for at least couple of hours, but ignored my message. That should tell you a lot.

Buyer July 01, 2018 09:55

He just replied: "Code you paid for is working and I don't see any reason to refund you money.

You may do whatever you wish. I remain the right to contact authorities about any activity I consider fraudulent."

So he's just confirmed that:

1) He takes a project to start it and never finish it (not to mention that the code is NOT working - a few weeks ago I found 30 bugs not fixed despite his promises).

2) He doesn't care about his clients at all; check his attitude.

The only "fraudulent" thing is his taking projects he never indents to fix or finish. If I knew that would be the case, I'd never hire him.

Buyer July 01, 2018 13:42

BTW 3 - this is the feedback I'm going to leave after contract is ended (I prefer not to end the contract yet in the hopes to find a solution, but at this point I'm not hopeful seeing his responses and unfriendly attitude):

Takes a project and never finishes it. Refuses to fix his own bugs. Promises to continue working on the project and do fixes and after weeks of waiting says that he doesn't' have time for your project. Seems to be on constant lookout for more projects with no regard to the current and unfinished ones. Threatens to contact "authorities" if you try to get some of your money back.

In the end, the completed project is totally useless. Had I known he'd not be willing and able to finish the project and fix his own bugs, I'd never have started it.

Regarding his programming skills, they are adequate even though he lacks basic sense of web security. For example, he would keep all setup files unprotected in a public folder with public access to your usernames or passwords. An inexperienced webmaster would be left with 100% vulnerable website (if it was ever completed).

To sum up, my suggestion is to never work with this freelancer on an hourly basis. He would add "manual time" for something that's not even clear. If he takes on a new client, your project is likely to be abandoned and you are left with a useless piece of code that a new programmer is not willing to touch. I'll have to start the project from scratch after having wasted half a year on it.

Buyer Wednesday at 15:20

FYI - I'm working on a new description of the project, it's here: ---
This time I'll divide it into 2 or 3 parts; will move on to the next part only once one part is completed to. ALSO I design it in a way that each part can work separately (so even when completing one part I'll be fine with the project as is).

And I'm going to use fixed pricing only. I just hope you won't 'ban' my account for trying to get part of my money back. The NOT-completed project is useless and buggy and the new one will be hosted on the same domain so you can see I won't use it at all.

Buyer Wednesday at 15:24

As above, just wanted to show you I'm not trying to abuse your site or freelancers on your site; my goal is to complete the project. I've never experienced such a programmer who would not even mention after 3 months that he's going to finish the project and its bugs. He just said he doesn't have time and doesn't care for my project.

Cheryl Wednesday at 16:11

Hello Buyer,

My name is Cheryl, your project and freelancer concerns were escalated to myself for review. I am sorry to see this project did not go as planned. Please let me address the several issues here.

With over 17 million cumulative registered Users, none of which are within Upwork's control, it's unfortunately not possible for us to vet or guarantee Freelancers or their work (or clients or their ability to pay, for that matter). For this reason, we emphasize repeatedly in our User Agreement that Upwork is a venue for buyers and sellers of services to directly connect, that Upwork does not supervise, control or endorse Freelancers, that Upwork is not responsible for Freelancers or their work, and that Clients are responsible for selecting and vetting their own workers. (See User Agreement, Â§Â§ 4, 8, 10, 13.1, 16, 17.) Also for those reasons, we do not guarantee the work product created by Freelancers and we are not liable to you for any damages related thereto or to your contract.

As such, as a client, you are given multiple tools to properly manage a contract. For an hourly project, you can dispute hours each week if you are not happy. Unfortunately, we are well past the time frame and all funds were released to the freelancer. As such, we can not force a refund. We also see that work was completed and you have been provided with code. An hourly project is not based on quality. As such, with proof of work, a chargeback with your bank may not go in your favor and result in permanent action regarding your Upwork account. When you signed up and began using the platform you agreed to use our dispute process and not file chargebacks via your bank.

As I said, I understand this has been a frustrating situation and we do not wish to profit from it. As a one time courtesy, I would be happy to give you a platform credit equal to the fee's collected on this contract, $248. Please provide in writing your agreement not to file any chargebacks for this contract or any future contracts and the credit will be applied.

We can also help get the code you do have reviewed internally for our code reviewer and get an idea of what the next freelancer would need to do address the issues. This is a free service as well.

Regards,

Cheryl
Executive Escalations

Buyer Wednesday at 16:30

Thank you for your reply. I'm an experienced webmaster who has completed a similar project. This is the first time I've encountered such an issue - for the last few weeks I have been expecting the freelancer to work on the bugs and to finish the project, but he apparently didn't and when I asked him why, he said that he doesn't have time. He has never even mentioned he would fix the bugs or finish the project.

So I wasted 6 months to get nothing useful in return. But now I plan to do it in a different way which cannot go wrong again.

Again, the work was not completed. It was only started and once I pointed out dozens of bugs, the programmer stopped working on it and stopped communication.

I'm sorry, but I cannot pay $1900+ for nothing (BTW - this freelancer estimated that the work would cost about $1000 when I started the job and he still went over it, charging manual time etc).

It's not your / Upwork fault, but this freelancer's fault. I appreciate the fee.. but it's not going to cover the new freelancer's fee -- I'm going to offer $800-$1000 to complete this part: ---

What we could do, though (but it's unlikely to work for you) - I could publish this project requirements so that you could see all the bids etc. and you'd cover the fixed fee (you could even choose/select a programmer who you think will not fail and possibly negotiate a better price). I just cannot pay twice for the same..

Buyer Wednesday at 18:11

In other words - maybe you could forward this link: --- to the project to the right people who could review it - it's quite possible it can be done for a better price (but it should be done by a real and 'old-school' programmer who knows how to use native PHP, MySQL, Javascript / Ajax). Then we could make a deal - I get this project completed with no further actions on my part against the original freelancer / project.

And I would take care of the second part of the project myself later (as I mentioned, this first part would work separately, regardless if the second part is done or not - so that would satisfy my current needs).

Buyer Thursday at 10:26

Could you please let me know how we're going to go about that; I've wasted months with the failed freelancer and want to finish this project. Who's going to pay my for my wasted time and research?

Anyway, the goal is to resolve it. My final proposed solution:

1. I cancel all dispute inquiries and will not be doing any more attempts to get money back.

2. I have this first part of the project completed: --- {link-to-project-DESCRIPTION}.

Please advise; I hope it is going to work out with no further delays. Thank you.

Cheryl Thursday at 17:35

Hello Buyer,

Thank you for your reply. I am sending your code over to our code reviewer, Amir. Please allow me to speak with him and get an idea of the best way to move forward.

Thank you for your patience,

Cheryl

Buyer Thursday at 17:37

Ok thank you..

Buyer Yesterday at 20:31

Maybe I should just post the link to this project as a new project so that we could see real bids? I could start with a fixed offer of $600 or so and see if there's interest. Or I should wait for your reply first?

Cheryl Today at 08:28

Good Morning Buyer,

I heard back from our code reviewer. He stated the information sent over is a sample UI, there's no functionality attached to it. Do you have additional code or is this all the freelancer provided?

Thanks,

Cheryl

Buyer Today at 08:59

Good morning,

The information in this link: --- is what I need to get done. Whatever the old "programmer" did is: buggy, not complete, overly-complicated, and not working. In one word: useless. Trying to "fix" it would be twice as expensive as doing this first part from scratch (as I mentioned, I'll take care of the second part later, as necessary).

So you could write Amir:

"Hi Amir, the client responded as above. Could you tell me how much total it would cost you or a good programmer to complete this project, exactly as described in the link? Thank you."

Buyer Today at 11:09

I went ahead and posted this project here to finally try to move forward and get more ideas about it from others: ---

Buyer Today at 11:40

Ok - this is one of the freelancers who applied, see our conversation below: ---

I'm not sure about his quality but responses seem legitimate. You may know more about his status as freelancer, his possible problems and his real success rate with clients, etc. IF no yellow flags, he seems okay and his price is very good too I think.

What do you think?

Buyer Today at 11:46

And here are all proposals so far - ---

So please tell me how we can move forward. My proposal, again:

1. I get the job done by one of the freelancers who applied (you may suggest or tell me which one is the best if you know more information).

2. You cover this fixed fee / give me credit for completion of this project (I seriously think it should be at least in part covered by the original programmer who turned out to be fraudulent).

3. I close all dispute inquires.

In the end, I lost almost 2K for nothing, so I do think I'm being very reasonable not wanting to have the whole money back, just the part to complete the project that was botched by the original freelancer.

Please let me know, thank you.

Buyer Today at 13:21

I chatted even more with --- who seems to know what he is doing, so if you approve above I think we could use him, his responses are thoughtful and legitimate. And his price is very good too. So please verify his profile and see if there are no red or yellow flags, if no I could go with him.

Buyer Today at 13:30

2nd good possibility - ---

Buyer Today at 13:41

and this one seems good too: ---

Cheryl Today at 13:41

Hello Buyer,

If you would prefer not to use the code already completed then that is not a problem, we will skip having it reviewed. As a service provider, I can not tell you how much something will cost or which freelancer to choose.

I strongly recommend interviewing and reviewing a freelancer's profile before hiring. Be sure to review the freelancer Job Success Score, previous client feedback before offering a contract. It would be best to use a fixed price contract for this type of job. However, please know once you release funds this is an indication you are happy with the work. We recommend getting all work and testing it before releasing payment.

I have also applied the credit we discussed to your account, it will show in your balance by the end of the day. The system will automatically pull from this credit before billing your credit card.

Thank you,

Cheryl

Buyer Today at 13:45

Yes, I'd use fixed only.

What credit did you apply, for what amount? As I mentioned, I cannot lose 2K for nothing and what would work is to have this project done (from the bids it's going to cost $650-$800).

Buyer Today at 14:00

So, I'm sorry, but if you mean you're only going to credit $248 then it won't work for me. You're protecting the fraudster who breached the contract and abandoned the buggy and incomplete project.

The only thing (and I find it VERY reasonable) is to credit $650-$800, depending on the chosen freelancer to do this project that should have been successfully done for 2K that brought me nothing but stress and waste of time.

Anything else, I'm going to fight the charges and move on with the project elsewhere because I was scammed by this freelancer.

Buyer Today at 15:11

Here is the summary. I see we cannot resolve it and I cannot wait any longer.

1. I hired a freelance programmer through Upwork. According to the contract, he promised to complete the project and follow my specifications.

2. He started working on fundamentals (full of bugs but at that stages it was not an issue since he promised to deliver the rest bug-free).

I kept paying for the fundamentals (so called "weekly invoices") hoping he would finish the project.

3. All of a sudden, around Apr 2018, he stopped working on the project. I thought he may need more time so, since we had valid contract, I didn't rush him. In the end, at start of May 2018, I asked when he's going to keep working and start fixing the bugs. He said he was busy until May 21. So I waited and waited. Then in June, I asked him again about the status of the project. He replied, "sorry for the delay." So I kept being patient.

4. On Jun 29, I realized I was being scammed and told him I cannot wait any longer and asked for refund since he breached the contract and abandoned the project. He replied:

"I can not rely solely on one project, so I plan my work and currently I don't have time for your project. I would like to use Upwork to mediate this situation. If they decide I should not be paid for this project I sure return the money, otherwise I earned them."

5. In July 2018, he disapproved the claim and Upwork sided with him. So I had no choice but to dispute the charges. I dispute part of it (around $1,200 out of total order amount) because $1,200 is the expected cost to hire a new (this time legitimate) freelancer and complete the project. I tried to resolve it with Upwork support, but we couldn't come into an agreement (for unknown reasons, they keep protecting this fraudulent freelancer).

Cheryl Today at 15:53

Hello Buyer,

I'd like to share some more information about Upwork to clarify any misconceptions about Upwork's role in the contract between you and your Freelancer. Upwork is a website provider that operates an online technology platform that you used to contract directly with and transmit payments to your Freelancers (akin to using eBay to find and buy a product, ADP to process payroll, or PayPal to transmit payments to a vendor). Section 4 of the User Agreement, to which you and the Freelancers each agreed, explains in detail Upwork's role as a website provider, and states: "[Upwork] is a marketplace where Clients and Freelancers can identify each other and advertise, buy, and sell Freelancer Services online."

As such, clients are provided with multiple tools to properly manage their contracts. As an hourly contract, work is not based on quality but on time spent working.

We will not be able to provide any further adjustments or additional platform credit. I would be happy to reach out to your freelancer and request they either fix the code or issue a refund.

Thank you,

Cheryl

Buyer Today at 16:03

I understand. In this case, though, I've concluded - based on my own experience as a buyer - that the hired freelancer is a fraud who starts a project, then abandons it after having paid to promise to deliver the work. He was paid, but never deliver what promised. That is a definition of scam. In the end, I wasted 6 months to identify a scammer on your platform and I hope you can take proper steps.

Regarding your suggestion to contact him - it may have a chance in getting to a better conclusion, so yes you may contact him about that.

Cheryl Monday at 15:53

Hello Buyer,

I'd like to share some more information about Upwork to clarify any misconceptions about Upwork's role in the contract between you and your Freelancer. Upwork is a website provider that operates an online technology platform that you used to contract directly with and transmit payments to your Freelancers (akin to using eBay to find and buy a product, ADP to process payroll, or PayPal to transmit payments to a vendor). Section 4 of the User Agreement, to which you and the Freelancers each agreed, explains in detail Upwork's role as a website provider, and states: "[Upwork] is a marketplace where Clients and Freelancers can identify each other and advertise, buy, and sell Freelancer Services online."

As such, clients are provided with multiple tools to properly manage their contracts. As an hourly contract, work is not based on quality but on time spent working.

We will not be able to provide any further adjustments or additional platform credit. I would be happy to reach out to your freelancer and request they either fix the code or issue a refund.

Thank you,

Cheryl

Buyer Monday at 16:03

I understand. In this case, though, I've concluded - based on my own experience as a buyer - that the hired freelancer is a fraud who starts a project, then abandons it after having paid to promise to deliver the work. He was paid, but never deliver what promised. That is a definition of scam. In the end, I wasted 6 months to identify a scammer on your platform and I hope you can take proper steps.

Regarding your suggestion to contact him - it may have a chance in getting to a better conclusion, so yes you may contact him about that.

Cheryl Yesterday at 13:05

Thank you Buyer, I have reached out to the freelancer.

I will be in touch,

Cheryl

----------

Upwork - Live Chat with Support

Chat started by Buyer

Contact support phone. Upwork.

Hello! Thank you for contacting Upwork. One moment please, and an agent will be right with you.

Daryl joined the chat.
Hello Buyer, I hope you are well.

Buyer

Could you tell me the status of - -----
I cannot wait much longer. I don't know what to do - have a possible freelancer who can complete first part of the job for about $650, but if you're only going to give me $248 credit, it's not going to work.

Daryl

I see that request has been escalated to our higher departments for assistance. I see that our Team member, Cheryl has been communicating with you and I can confirm that her and her department has received your responses. Kindly allow them to review the information and respond back to you anytime within 24 hours.

Buyer
So if we cannot resolve it asap today then I'll have to move on and continue disputing all the payments because I was scammed by your freelancer. Then, I assume, you're going to ban my account so I don't want to hire anyone now to avoid them and me wasting even more time.

Daryl
I am sorry to hear about the issue with your Freelancer. We only suspend accounts if the user is violating our Policies. I do not see any reason for your account to be banned. What I can do to notify Cheryl or her team that you contacted on Live Chat today and expecting a response from her or her team ASAP.

Buyer
Yes, please let them know, it have already taken days for that. Thank you. I'll wait till tomorrow, but need to decide what to do. Bye..

Daryl
Alright. Will certainly do. If there is nothing else, I thank you for visiting Upwork Live Chat. Please contact us again should you require any assistance. Bye for now and take care.

Daryl left the chat.