I've taken the time to read through this entire thread and I must admit my verdict is still out. One thing I noticed was the difference in sentence structure and quality of writing between those with complaints and those with praise. Those against the site seem to have less command of their skill where those with praise seem well articulated. Beth, I'm sorry to say this but you are the exception here but I suspect you don't claim to be a writer. Could the issues be poor quality of work?

Before I get blasted I should qualify my statement. I am aware that this is a casual forum and as such we let our guard down. A certain level of syntax is to be expected. That said, the core of our writing will always shine through no matter how poor the grammar. A couple of you leave me wondering just how good your finished product could be.

One writer here complained about not being paid in full. I've read the payment schedule and terms posted on the site. Was all the work SCHEDULED to be completed in the same payment cycle? Was it completed on time? Were revisions required? Did you follow all the requirements set forth by them? Did the client pay on time? I find it hard to believe they would pay you a portion and screw you on the rest. If they plan to screw you out of money why wouldn't they just keep it all?

I suspect were we to explore everybody's claims of non-payments we'd find reasonable explanations. By "reasonable" I don't mean letting them off the hook, I mean a valid non-fraudulent reason. I'm willing to bet the sluggishness to pay in a timely manner by Essay Writers could be attributed to poor management not malice. I could be wrong too. They could be a complete scam and the posters with complaints could be justified. At this point I have no opinion one way or the other.

The point is that a person should research both sides of an argument before formulating an opinion. More importantly, a person should be very careful to express ALL the facts when writing something that could be damaging to a company... there is a legal term for that and it could cost you a lot of money should Essay Writers decide to be vindictive.

I applied and was accepted to them. I'm going to write a couple of papers for them. I'm not new at this and I have proofing resources that most do not. I will keep you up on my dealings with Essay Writers and you can bet it will be fair and balanced.

I feel compelled to point out a couple problems Army.

You need to remove the comma between "product" and "either".
The first sentence of the second block is parochial. A professional writer would rephrase the sentence to avoid having "for" twice within three words; oh, and "that" after "The bottom line is..." is completely out of place and the hallmark of a novice.

Perhaps you should revise as follows: The bottom line is anyone who writes with poor grammar and sentence structure* has no business writing professionally*** for American customers.

In yet another punctuation gaff you used the apostrophe wrong in "writer's". In your use "feelings" are possessed by the writers. You would punctuate as if you are referring to one writer because you made the topic singular by using the word "any" before "writer".

Sorry if that hurts writers' feelings... is arguably** correct.
Sorry if that hurts any writers' feelings... is incorrect.

I noticed in another post that you placed semi-colons after each of your numbered points. I don't know who told you that is how you do it but they do need to be slapped repetitively and without mercy. All the semi-colons do is distract the reader due to the rareness of a semi-colon; again, another example of something a pro would know that a novice wouldn't. For the love of our language use periods or nothing at all. I'm aware you're trying to show us that all your points have commonality but we already know that as you have numbered them! Can you say "redundant"?

Lastly, while technically correct your last sentence is another example of a series of words no professional writer would use together. "Native language" is another parochial choice of words. "Native tongue" would punch it up considerably. I'm sure with a little effort you could find an entirely different way that both says the same thing and makes you look professional.

I am aware I'm using the asterisks wrong. I placed them after the word in question in an effort to remove any ambiguity.

*Using "sentence structure" in lieu of "word choice" is how a pro does it.
**You could get away without the apostrophe at all in that particular example.
***Since grade school we understand that a professional is someone who gets paid to do something.

I have and I stand by my initial comment.


My appearance here is the result of something you should've done before doing any work for them. I came across the site yesterday and applied to it. I received the "approval" email this morning. Having been around for a while I am a bit skeptical of this website and others like it. Unlike you, I wasn't hell-bent on churning out work and earning money. Unlike you, I researched the site first. Unlike you, I did the professional thing by doing my homework first and in doing so I landed on this site.

I read the entire thread and as I said in my previous posting I noticed that the writers who were slamming the site were doing so in a manner that suggested they weren't the best of writers which suggested quality of work could've been part of the problem. I'm beginning to see the problem as the research I'm doing, which you were too lazy to do, is turning up answers. I highly doubt you'd understand those answers and how to protect yourself. As a professional I do understand the picture that is slowly developing.

The best advice I could give you Army is to get a clue. Pull your head out of you're a$$ before you start slamming things you haven't taken the time to look into. I would also develop your skills as a writer a little more before you start tearing apart the work of others. Judging from your user name you should be able to understand this: On this subject you are talking way over your pay-grade.

CORRECTION: For a while today I've been referring to Amy as Army. I've cleaned my glasses and can see better now. Sorry about the mistake Amy... even perfect people like us make them once in a while ;)

Your posts aren't manuscripts? Really? Let me see if I understand you; I don't want to get this wrong. Because your posts aren't manuscripts it is ok to have errors in them but it isn't ok for others to have errors in theirs? Or are you saying as long as our opinion is the same as yours you'll overlook errors but if our opinion differs from yours and you have no intelligent rebuttal you'll tear our posts to shreds?

I'm not your equal huh? I agree. I've had six-figure sales for screenplays I've written. I've had five-figure options on others. Books I've written have been on the list, how many have you put there? I have an agent, I'm sure you don't. How am I sure? Because you wouldn't be on this site exposing yourself to potential legal action over a couple hundred bucks! I'm not your equal, I'm your superior. You can be Queen of the Words here on these boards and draft better posts than me. I'll stick to being Lord of my fat bank account created by the words I've used.


Am I in love with you? Perhaps. I suppose that's for me to know and you to find out. I've always liked the sound of "Amy" rolling off my lips in the morning. I'll have to ponder that a bit and get back to you;)

I'm glad to see you paid attention to your grammar book Amy. However, had you taken the time to learn more about punctuation you would've learned that semicolons are a dying thing. Had you any feel for writing in "common language" you'd know to refrain from using them except when you really want to draw attention to that part of your work.

Here's the part where I spill some knowledge onto the page so grab your pencil, crayons or whatever you're allowed to write with and take notes.

Writing isn't what your professors demanded from you in class. It is about communicating with people on a level, in a way they will understand. You are trying to get whatever idea that is trapped inside your mind into theirs. Getting that exact picture across takes skill and patience. You have neither at this point. Sure you may be able to pull straight A's for your work but that's all you know at this point.

I say that without knowing anything about you other than what you've posted. If I had to venture a guess, I would say you suffer from some sort of inferiority complex. Did you spend your adolescence being thought of as stupid? Do you feel the uncontrollable need to display your intelligence? I'm sure you do. The way you talk down to people on these boards supports my theory. Because of that need is why your work came back as plagiarized. Confused? That doesn't surprise me. I'll clear it up for you provided you promise to understand that this is only a partial picture based on what info my research has churned up to this point.

When a student buys an essay or whatever and turns it in he/she runs the risk of getting busted. The crime? Plagiarism. When a professor discovers work he/she knows the student didn't do, he/she marks that work as plagiarized material. Watch closely, here comes the part that makes me look really, really smart. In definition the work IS plagiarized. The student tried to pass the work of another person off as his/her own. Classic textbook plagiarism. In an academic atmosphere it doesn't matter if the student paid for it and owns it. In the end it still is work done by another presented as the work of the student.

What happens next is where the headache begins for the author of the work. The student complains to the site they purchased the work from. Still watching closely? Need me to define any of the big words before going on? The site in question, like many others, is set up to keep you from getting paid. They sell the work "as is, no refund" and create a tricky list of requirements and disqualifiers that the writer has to navigate to ensure payment. Shady? Yes. Uncommon in the writing industry? No.

In short, they will pay you as the time table states. The trick is for you to work within the requirements and avoid the disqualifiers. If you do that and the student doesn't get busted, you will get your money as promised. Even if the student gets busted you can get your money. The trick is navigating the convoluted appeal process when a plagiarism complaint is leveled against you. Frankly, if your student gets busted it is just as mush your fault as it is theirs. Like hell you say?

You're a professional. Because of that fact you have your ego in check. You've agreed to write something anonymously. You should've taken the time to make sure your final product isn't above your customer's pay grade. You didn't do that, did you? No, I think not. You wanted to show the student and his professor how smart you are. You used a million dollar vocabulary and every format and punctuation rule you could pull from a Quick Access book to show that student how lucky he was to have you; the Queen of the Words, working for them. The result was your student got nailed for plagiarism and you didn't get your money.

Instead of taking the time to follow the appeal process as you agreed to do when you checked the box accepting the terms, you argued with them and ran around blasting them. How sad.

Go ahead and run around these boards picking on writers you feel are not your equal. Go forth almighty Queen of the Words and spread forth all the textbook grammatically correct work you can. Ignore the advice of those who know, those who've been there and done that. Keep putting those words down just as your English teachers taught you, you'll do them proud. You won't be alone. You're not the only one out there that knows it all. Go. Have your fun. The rest of us? The rest of us will be right here collecting our money.

I've read somewhere that getting hung up on cognitive semantics is a sign of insecurity. You need people to believe you're smart, don't you Amy? Does it help you get through your day? Does it ease the pain of being an outcast when you were growing up? Ok then. We'll allow you to ring us up on a technicality... anything to make you feel better.

For the record though I'd like to point out your hang up is a classic example of what I mean by "common language"

Just another example of your "condition"... was mocking that person really necessary, did it accomplish anything?

Welcome. You may want to consult a lawyer because what you described is a myth. The courts have struck down such defenses.

As for the site you signed up for...

I signed up for it too and I've been doing some looking into things. One one level they are on the up and up but on other levels not so much up. If you read the rules carefuly and follow them you will get paid for your work. I'm new on this site but in my last post on another thread about this site I explain the workings a little better... just ignore my banter with Amy... she's picking on me!

Ok. I co-wrote Just Cause (1995)... There were only two of us on the script. I published under a pen but there is documentation out there that can help you fill in the blanks... FYI you started this!

Relax Isha... Amy's delusional... give her some credit though... she's trying to cope with a lot today.

Boy, somebody has a stick up their --- about these ESL writers. Don't you think you're being a little harsh here Amabella? I sense a real personal tone of anger in your words when you discuss these writers and just not in this thread.

I wouldn't call it racist but it is prejudice. I don't see the harm in foreigners competing for work here. How many schools have foreign students enrolled? There is a market for say... an Indian who speaks English, no matter how limited. We do live in a free market system, competition is healthy for it. If your work is superior to his you'll get the job... so what's the big deal? Globalization is the trend of the future, you may as well get used to them being in competition with you.

First, I must correct you... hehehehe. Essay Writers didn't claim to hire PhD writers. They required a Bachelors.
Second, I must express my bewilderment over my inability to draft a short post... I'm as baffled as you.
Third, I know it seems like I'm attacking you personally, I'm not. Whether you know it or not a writer writes in the subtext never in the context. I see in your subtext things that trouble me and I'm just trying to understand.

Away we go...

Are you trying to say that Americans don't do or shouldn't do business with companies based in other countries? If you have a cell phone your customer support more than likely comes from India. Same if you have a Dell computer. The list goes on and on.

Degree vs. No Degree

Sweetie, you must be young... under 30 for sure, right?

Life lesson 101: Pedigrees don't mean anything.

In the end it doesn't matter if a PhD or a High School dropout wrote something. What matters is how good the work is. I know a couple people with PhD's and I hate to burst your bubble but they are some of the stupidest people I know. Sure, they're masters in their field but they can hardly function in the real world. The only thing a degree proves is that you were able to put in the time and you were smart enough to remember enough information to gain a passing grade thus earning your degree.

A few years ago I went to get my masters. I met with a counselor and discussed what I wanted to do and my reasons for wanting to do so. She told me not waste my time. Experience not degrees get you work. I learned firsthand how true that statement was. How many instructors do you know at colleges across the country that don't even have a high school diploma? I know one. What he does have are years of experience doing what he teaches.

The waiting list to get into his class is impressive. I suspect if you wanted to learn how to structure fiction you would take a pass on this course because there is no way the instructor can be smarter than you because he doesn't have a degree. It would be your loss. Students of this man have gone on to win Oscars, Pulitzers and other awards. The funniest thing about this guy... he needs an assistant... he doesn't speak English too well.

My sister is another prime example of just how worthless a degree can be. She graduated high school and never went to college, she has no degree. In order to be considered for her job you would need a Masters. The company she works for hired her during the initial interview last year. She wasn't seeking the job, the invited her to apply. They took her over all other applicants who had MBA's. Why? Because of her experience.

You do need to learn to hold less emphasis on a person's education lest you miss out on learning something that later in life you would view as the key to it all. I too at one point in my life was like you. I equated no degree to ignorance. The internet was new and one day I met this guy in a chat room. He was a writer and we had a lot in common. After a few conversations with him I learned he couldn't spell, had piss poor sentence structure skills and almost no vocabulary. I almost bailed. I didn't and I'm both glad and a better writer because of it.

Where I lacked, he either excelled or was able to show me how in a way that clicked within me. With him laying out the foundation I was able to craft quality work, both in non-fiction and fiction. After a couple years I moved onto other projects without him. I wouldn't be where I am today if it weren't for that illiterate bum. The moral of this is that everybody holds value to somebody. Who are you to condemn someone because they don't meet your standards?

I work with many bad writers. I do so because they aspire. They're willing to put in the work even if there's no chance of a sale at the end. They do it because they want to learn. In working with them I've learned too. That's a big thing. As much as you think I'm not on your level with a keyboard squared is how far away from my level you are in structuring and executing stories. If I can learn something from "stupid" people I'm sure you have some room to learn as well. You said you write for yourself. Wonderful. Don't you want to treat yourself to the best writing you're capable of? Don't you aspire?

Perhaps E. I'm working on an article and this is research for me.

Take reading comprehension again my friend. If you look back at my first post I said I was going to take two jobs there and write them two different ways and see what happens...

Not to go all vernacular on you but in scientific terms one of those stories would be a "control"... need me to explain it a little better for you?

Perhaps F. Writing fiction involves hours upon hours of idle time. Maybe this is a way for me to burn that time constructively. After all creativity is a muscle and if you don't continue to exercise it things will go bad for you quickly.

Perhaps G. I was bored yesterday and stumbled upon their site. In that boredom I filled out the application, got the acceptance today and in checking them out found you guys and have been keeping myself amused all day. It is sorta fun bantering back n forth with Amy.

Perhaps H. A friend is trying to make some extra money and he asked me to check this out for him because I have a knack for weeding out scams. Upon finding this forum the writer in me engaged when I found someone willing to argue.

I'll give YOU a hint, E thru H. I write fiction and do some ghost work on non-fiction stuff. I just finished the first draft on my most current spec-script, Hillbillyman. It went in the drawer yesterday and will sit there for a week when I will pull it out and begin the headache of revising. Since you don't seem too bright and I don't want you to fall behind, I'll tell you that revising is when you go over your work and fix problems and make it better.

Normally I would burn the week of idle time by playing with my peers on various groups I'm part of. A buddy of mine called me yesterday and told me he got a job at a place called Essay Writers. After a long explanation of what they were I told him there had to be something fishy. I tossed out a couple of queries on the group and netted no information. The SYSOP asked me if I'd be willing to draft an article for the group of how I went about making the call of scam or legit. I agreed and began checking them out. I've pretty much unraveled the uncommonly high amount of plagiarism claims from that site and have discovered that more times than not they do in fact pay so long as the writer follows a complex set of requirements designed to keep you from getting paid.

Are they a scam? Yes and no. If you're good at following directions and diligent in following up occasional mistakes and sluggishness from them you will get your money. Keep in mind they can't exist without you. If they have no content to sell they have no income. The model there seems to be make it as tough as they can for the writers to remain compliant... if 1 out of 4 manages to navigate a payment we're doing fine. Is this attitude worth closing the door on potential income? No. You're going to find that sort of attitude wherever you go in the industry... nobody wants to give you money if they don't have to and believe me when I tell you if they can find a way not to give you money you're not getting any.

Studios will give you points on your script. That's a percentage of the box office take. Your film may gross a hundred-million but the studio may tell you it grossed fifty-million. These contracts are iron clad. The gross is public record. You have an airtight case. What you don't have is the unlimited supply of cash to pay lawyers to keep the suit alive. In the end you shrug your shoulders and happily take what they give you. Why? Because they can bury you and if you play your cards right you can pry a development deal out of them - six months to a year of guaranteed work! Essay Writers isn't much different. You have to walk the straight and narrow to avoid fines and forfeitures of money.

If you feel confident you can navigate the system and write papers that are going to look like students wrote them I would say go for it. I wouldn't recommend using it as your sole source of income but if you can play the game you'll get a few extra bucks a month. Just remember the way to avoid plagiarism claims is to make sure you papers are run-of-the-mill. You don't want the professors discovering the student bought the work (see my post in the other thread).

Protection tips...

If you do get involved with this site you have some recourse when you don't get paid and the appeal process gets you nowhere.

I would suggest keeping date and time records as you create papers for them. If they or the customer rejects your work keep whatever it is they send you to inform you of it. The rights to that paper are now yours. Copyright it. Wait a week or two and inquire about having a paper written on the same topic as if you're someone else. If they offer you up your work you have them dead in the water on copyright violations and those violations are worldwide and under the circumstances could lead to class action. I say this because I have a sneaky suspicion that they recycle the rejected work, if not there, somewhere.

In the end you have to decide if you're smart enough to play with them and diligent enough to follow through when there are issues. As for the money you have to consider getting paid for one of every three papers is still better than not making any money at all doing nothing.

The group and SYSOP refered to in the above post ARE NOT this group or SYSOP! Sorry for the confusion.

Not to split hairs but do you see the problem between your two claims? You're running around screaming... ok... ok... TYPING 'they claim to hire ONLY...'

I must admit the first of the three does in fact say only but the rest say MOST. I should also point out that one of the MOST's is from the same site as the first one who said ONLY which could imply a possible typo or breach of communication.

I fail to see the fraud you're speaking of here. As the customer you can either accept or reject the work. If it's good who cares if a MOSTLY PhD wrote it?

I'm new to this whole essay writing thing so I have a question for you... and it's a dumb one I'm sure... WHAT IN THE FRACK IS AN ESL WRITER?!

YOU'RE GIVING ME A HEADACHE! We just went over this in a different thread! STICK TO ONE THREAD ALREADY! HEHEHE

That's what you're not getting. For the business we're in this isn't really that bad, I've seen a lot worse. I can show you sites that virtually promise you 5,000 copy first prints as long as you pony up 1200 bucks. Sure they'll run 5,000 copies... as long as you hit something like 40 different points and rules.

These guys are no different. You have to remember something Amy. We're writers, masters of words... hell, you're the Queen of the Words... because this is our trade we should be able to understand and follow the guidelines they've set forth.

Tell me if this is fair...

You write a screenplay. A studio gives you a $25,000 option against a $250,OOO sale price. It's a two-year option, which means they hold the rights to your work for two years at the end of that time they can either give the rights back to you, renew or give you the $250,000. In the contract it specificly states that you are to be paid for the script before it it produced. However, the 2,000 pages of fine print enables them to not only produce the film but open it in theaters and you haven't seen a dime of the sale price yet... and you won't till after it's out on DVD.

Sounds like a scam huh? They say they're going to give you 250k but they only give 10% of it and hold on to the rest until the option finally expires. It's up to the writer to find and close those loop-holes before signing the option... Just as it is up to the essay writer to be sure he understands what's expected of him in order to be paid.

I've looked at it several different ways and I don't see the scam you and the others are seeing. If you didn't get paid for something odds are somewhere along the line you made a mistake. You learn from it and move on and avoid making it again.

LOL Ambiguity is the best defense!

I hate to say it but that doesn't seem too politically correct... I can see how some would take offence.

I'm dating myself here but I loved the original Galactica... but the new one rocks... best drama around... sucks a$$ through a straw sideways that we have to wait till January for new eps.

If I were contracted by them to "scare" people into keeping their yaps shut I did a **** poor job. In fact I've been downright incompetent. I've given you a glimpse into how and why it works and how to get paid. I've explained how it is a scam and how it isn't. Not exactly a good sales job huh? I even whet so far as to tell you how to protect your work in the event that my feelings are right and they are using rejected work elsewhere. This being the umbrella company that it is would I be wise in disclosing that information if I were being paid by them?

The progression of my statements regarding that site - simplistic version (since you're too stupid to comprehend written English)

Post 1: Seen all the posts about this site and I felt it may be unfair or biased. I especially had a problem with the personal attacks on the poster named Beth, who claimed to be a rep of the company, by Amy. The post ended with me stating I was going to look into it a bit and give my opinion.

Post 2: Different thread. By this posting I had already interviewed a professor and spoken to two representatives of the website. I recognized this sort of set up and stated that it is legit but with serious strings. Stated that caution and skill are needed to be successfully involved with this company.

Post 3: Posted a little about how it works. Spelled out how and why they claim plagiarism as often as they do. Also reiterated how important it is to your getting paid to follow the rules carefully. Also explained the risk involved. Provided tips on how to protect yourself in the event your work is claimed to be plagiarized. Stated that I feel they are using rejected work on the site or elsewhere.

That's the basic gist of my posts regarding that site. I ask you, how exactly would those be construed as something a contracted person would do? Please explain this to me as I am incapable of shoving my head as far up my a-- as you have yours.

Yes, this company does pray on the weak minded and benefit the knowledgeable. Writers who aren't smart enough or savvy enough to avoid the traps are going to get taken. Those who are diligent and competent are going to thrive. Perhaps you just weren't intelligent enough to work the system. I'm sorry you were taken for a ride but based on my research into this company you got taken for one of two reasons, you were either too stupid or you were incompetent. Based on your postings my money would be on both.

You're problem is they took you for some money, didn't they? If anyone here has a clear cut motive for their actions it would be you. My comments about them have been fair and balanced. Just because they wronged you doesn't give you license to forego the truth and ignore the facts. Those facts say if you do it the way they want you to odds are you will get paid.

I'm not saying it's OK I'm saying that is pretty much the way of it. If you work for a good company then I would consider you one of the lucky ones. Is it freelance work or are you an actual employee or permanent contractor? That makes a difference.

The work I do is strictly freelance. I've worked for good people and crooks. If you know how to protect your work you can make good money with the crooks. One of the best methods is employing a "pay as you go" system ($ after step-outline, $ after treatment, $ after first draft, ect...). There have been some occasions I've been taken but even then I got something out of it. Either more work which I did get paid on or screen credits and in my line of work those are more valuable than money.

If you've been in the game for a while you have to know you're going to get taken from time to time as you learn and grow. We all do. If it happens to you, learn from it and grow. Find a positive to build on. Move on. By move on I mean after you've fought as hard as you can to get your money.

Do you proof on the side?


We are never judged by what we do, only by what we've done - A. R. Sanfilippo

I spend on average 14 hours a day behind my desk when I'm working on my writings. As each revision is concluded I take a week or two off to let the story age a bit... What would you do with a week or two off from work?

This is what I do, what I have done:

Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Konsor
I think I heard somewhere (not sure where, or who, or anything like that . . . take this as you will) that good writers plagarize, great writers steal.

Everything, everything EVERYTHING has been done before. Everyone will be able to say, this scene reminded me of this story, or this character reminded me of that character. This is not bad, it just shows that the story effected the person, made them remember, made them connect it with other thoughts and stories.

I don't think you're plagarizing. Indeed, I think it's very, very hard to plagarize, even if you are trying to. Stories are stories, and if you're capturing the human expirence through your own mind then your story is original.

Also, if you actually write the story you'll probalby find it's 100 x different then the one you read. And if you don't write it . . . then I'm afraid I have nothing to say to you.

A little bit drunk.
-Charlie

Not to split hairs Charlie but there are too many new writers here and this needs to be cleared up. The term "Everything has been done before" doesn't refer to parts of a story, locations or even character types. What is meant by that statement is that in theory every possible plot line has been done. That is also where the saying "A good writer plagiarizes a great writer steals" comes from. A good writer will take a the plotting of a story and make it original work, a great writer will take the plot and make something insanely original and highly creative. 48 hours' plotting morphs into Rush Hour - example of good. Romeo and Juliet is converted into Titanic - example of great. While Rush hour used the formula of a loner cop forced to buddy up with a partner, Titanic takes the structure of Romeo and Juliet and creates an unique story. I'm sure it looks like Charlie and I are saying the same thing. We're not. I'm sure Charlie understands what I'm saying, I'd even bet this was what he was trying to say. I'm going to try to clear it up for you a little.

Today seems to be Titanic day for me (I seem to be using it in all my examples). Titanic is simply put, Romeo and Juliet on a boat. That plot line has been used so many times dating further back than Shakespeare. If you wanted to write a love story where the villains are differing societies you are free to do so. However, if you write a lover story where the villains are differing societies and place it on a ship destined to sink you may... MAY... have a problem.

Now let's say you want to write a story about Titanic before and up to the sinking. In other words you want to tell the story of Sue and Bill who were heading to America for a new start. You know, tell the same tale from another's point-of-view. You can do that, no issues. Let us say that you have Bill and Sue sitting at the Captain's table on the exact same night that Jack and Rose were, cheesy but still no issues. Where you would run into a problem is if you use the same FICTIONAL characters that were used in Titanic. Any character from Titanic who is/was a real person is fair game. You could even have Bill save Sue from jumping to her death and have the captain, Mr. Moody and Molly Brown standing around talking about it with Bill... you could even bring up the fictional line that "somebody slipped and almost fell there a few hours ago" and you're still ok... no issues. However, if you have Jack there you've got a problem. More so, if Jack chimes in with "yeah, right, she slipped. She was going to jump and I stopped her" you've got a huge problem.

You can't protect an idea with a copyright. You can protect finished work and characters. Jack is protected but the ship designer isn't; he was a real person. However, you can't not use the characteristics of that character that were made up. You have to form your own opinion of his personality based on your OWN research. A good example of this would be to compare the leads of Tombstone and Wyatt Earp (sp?)... I think that was the film's title, it stared Costner as Earp. You'll see both stories have Wyatt but Tombstone's Wyatt is considerably different than the other one. Why, if they were the same man? Because, the writers researched Wyatt Earp and based on their findings combined with story needs and opinion came up with what they BELIEVED his personality to be... and that work can be protected.

Before I scare any of you new writers into a shell let me follow that up with this... even though you can't protect your ideas, you're ideas are still safe. Finished work is the best way to protect an idea but our individuality protects our ideas too. If Cameron had hired ten writers to each write a copy of Titanic he would've ended up with ten very different stories. No two writers will turn out the same final draft of one idea. Look at the time it took to make the first Star Wars movie and the first Star Trek film. Does anyone really believe that Paramount had no clue of the basic idea behind Star Wars? Fox knew what Star Trek was all about.

Sharing broad storkes is healthy and good for your craft. Try not to share the finer points of your story. The broad strokes can't be protected but the finer ones could be. To answer the original question I would have to say you're ok. Remember stay away from what can be protected and take the rest!

This is what I've done...

Re: Characters screaming....

You seem to be in the starting stages of your story. First write a synopsis to yourself. Just include the basic strokes; the beginning, the middle and the end. Once you have a page long synopsis that you feel is very solid begin fleshing it out a little more. Think of the main plot points. What puts the story in motion (The inciting incident, the reason for the tale, ect...)? How does the story end? What major event between the inciting incident and the climax spins the character into a new direction? Those would be your major plot points.

ie. Titanic

Short synopsis -Jack meets Rose on the doomed boat and falls in love: Jack meets and falls for Rose, a well-to-do member of high-society. Rose is engaged to be married. Jack sets in motion of helping Rose "live" by leaving that lifestyle and being with him. Rose comes to her senses and goes to Jack. The ship hits the iceberg and begins to sink. A race against time ensues as Jack tries to save both his and Rose's lives. Partially successful Jack manages to save Rose but at the cost of his own life.

Main plot points:

Inciting Incident: Jack meets and falls in love with Rose - he must have her no matter the cost
Major Reversal 1: Rose rejects Jack and his lifestyle
Major Reversal 2: Rose sees the light and goes to Jack just before the boat hits the iceberg - now Jack must save her life.
Climax: The boat sinks, Rose is safe and Jack is dead.

Once you have that much done then move into the next phase; stepping out your outline. I do it with index cards. I write on a separate card the main plot points and place them in order on a large table (as if you're drawing a time line). Then take one plot point and work backward. Create as many scenes as you can from the main plot point backwards to the plot point before it or the beginning of the story (books and movies both have scenes but if you want you can call them story events) Don't forget to ask questions to yourself... the answer is almost always a scene.

ie. Jack meets and falls in love with Rose...

Q: How does Jack get on the boat if he's poor?
A: He won a ticket.
S: Jack is playing cards; he gets a lucky hand and wins a pair of tickets for the Titanic

Q: A pair of tickets? Why 2?
A: He has a buddy he's traveling with
S: Jack needs a friend; a minor character to help spread out the exposition

Q: How do Jack and Rose meet?
A: He saves her.
S: Rose twists her ankle and Jack catches her before she hits her head.

Q: Why in the world would she consider leaving that life to be poor with Jack?
A: Because she's a free spirit
S: Rose is sitting at another dull gathering, she can't take it. She darts out of the room crying.

Q: The Jack and Rose meeting is kind of weak, can you do better
A: SUICIDE! After that dinner she goes to jump off the back of the ship, Jack saves her!

Ok, that should be enough to get the idea. If you haven't seen Titanic go rent it. Once you draft as many scenes as you can that lead up to your plot point you then must order them and cut what isn't needed. In my example I gave two ways Jack and Rose can meet. I cut the ankle one in favor of the jumping one (I should note that Q+A stuff is about all I put on an index card in addition to a brief scene description). I have a lot of exposition (non-dramatic information the reader/viewer needs to fully get the story) a good way to get the expo out there is if Jack had a buddy. I could drag down the beginning of the story by a few "Jack meets his buddy" scene but in the end it isn't important to the story so I bring the buddy in mid-friendship (dialogue and interaction can show the audience that Jack and dude have been pals for a long time) In doing so I begin following a very important rule of story crafting - Start the story as close to the inciting incident as possible. In the end Jack needs to get on the boat with a friend, that's where the story starts... how did Jack get on the ship.

Once you have a good step outline from the start to each plot point and to the end of the tale you're ready for the next step - Treating the outline. Make sure before you start this step that you really like your step outline. The story flows, there are no gaps in the tale... you want to be as happy as an artist can be with the tale. Take each card (which represents one scene) separately and draft a synopsis of it. In other words a scene is a short story that when placed with other scenes in order works to tell a larger story. So each scene should have a beginning, middle and an ending. A scene should also be dramatic. In a scene you start off with somebody or thing wanting something. Somebody or something wanting something directly opposite of the other persons want. A series of actions taken by each to help them achieve their opposite goals. A winner, somebody has to win and that victory has to move the tale into the next scene and generally leave the hero in worse shape than when the scene started.

ie. Jack wins tickets.

On your index card you have: Jack wins two tickets for a trip on Titanic.

Treatment: Jack and Antonio are teamed up playing poker. The pot is huge and in it are two tickets for passage on Titanic. One of the two locals has a good hand, the other, like Antonio, has nothing; it's down to Jack and the huge local. As luck would have it Jack wins. The local punches out the other local and Jack and Antonio rush to catch the ship.

For this postings sake I'm keeping the treatment short. Normally it would be another block long. The scene opens with two sides wanting the same thing. Jack's side wants to win, the locals want to win... there can only be one winner. The actions each side takes to reach their goal is the betting and folding. Jack's side wins. On the surface it looks like all is good for Jack, how does this scene leave Jack worse off than before the scene started? Had Jack lost he would have lived! We needed to get him on the ship... he's now on the ship... he should've brought a wetsuit!

Once you treat each scene the hard part comes. You must go over the treatment and edit and revise the plotting of your story. Ask yourself of each scene is there a want? Is there an opposite want? Is there action to achieve the want? Is there a winner? Any scene that doesn't have these four basic elements needs to be reworked and if you can't get them in there you must cut the scene and place the exposition elsewhere in the story. Editing and revising your story is going to be the most difficult thing you ever do. It is hard to cut our own work. Editing is an art and it takes a long time to hone that skill. When you get your treatment edited down and the story is solid then and only then will you begin to "write" your story... Just as you did with the cards for the treatment you take one scene at a time and tell the story of that scene. Keep in mind this is the first draft of the work people will see. It must contain everything you feel is important to help pull your reader into that world. Once the first draft is done you start the edit cycle again and again and again...

I hope this helps you a little in trying to flesh out your story. I'm sorry this post got away from me and became as long as it is. Good luck with the project and always keep this in mind: Anybody can write; a writer makes what he writes better. That means the first draft is always going to be bad... you judge your skill by the revisions.

Should I go on? During my down time I spend hours tutoring aspiring writers on all sorts of issues. Writing is a craft and we are artists. We have an obligation to pass on the skills of our trade. I don't charge a dime for any of it. I've spent weeks drafting how-to material for people who were having troubles picking up the craft. Do you know how many miles I've travelled, on my own dime, to meet with writer groups to assist them where I can? It would stagger the mind. I'm sorry if my sense of fairness drives me to look at everything objectively before piling on. I'm sorry but your opinion of this site is completely wrong and driven by emotions evoked by some sort of betrayal or screwing you haven't shared.

You thought she was dead... don't fib! What you didn't know is she's a Cylon; one of the final five!

I didn't start it... I'm perfect. I'm so perfect that perfect people walk up to me and scream "God, you're perfect"!

Checked the mirror... it broke! Sigh!

By the way my name isn't Jethro... not sure if you knew that... just gettin you in the loop and all...

OMG you made a mistake! Here allow me to loan you a "to". hehehehe

How do you see this as a defense of them? I read the rules, asked questions and investigated other sources. Then I posted my findings. Did you do half as much before stating your opinion? I'm sorry if my findings didn't mesh with your opinion. They have to have a sort of legitimacy or they wouldn't be a primary sponsor on Yahoo search. Yahoo has policies in place that prohibit "Scam Artists" from advertising on their service. Trust me when I tell you that Yahoo has far more investigative resourses than I do; if they're advertising they checked out fine.

Let's go to the card...

On one side you have a company which needs writers in order to have products to sell. You have people on this forum, your buddy included, saying they got paid albeit with some delay and hassle. You have satisfied customers and writers; this forum isn't the only forum talking about this company. The company isn't listed on any official watch list as a scam. Only on privately owned web-forums which by the way are apparently littered with sub-standard writers who have been terminated by the company. The fact that they do terminate writers who violate rules goes to support their legitimacy, not work against it as some of you have implied. If they're trying to coax free work out of writers why would they rid themselves of any writer?

They are a main search sponsor on Yahoo search which means their business methods and history were investigated by Yahoo per contractual agreement. They claim to be a corporation and they are. The exemption is so complicated that I can't even find a way to articulate it and I'm not going to spend the money to have my lawyer explain it. The best I can do is state the exemption exists, in part, because of the type of business they are and the location of their main office. The issue of the transfer limits somebody brought up appears to be on the payee's end not the payer's end. When you're dealing with overseas transfers they are required to follow our tax laws. Our government has a limit to the amount of money you can receive from overseas without having to file special forms and paying certain types of taxes. Also, let's not forget The Patriot Act. That was the only information I could find about transfer limits. There could be other issues but time constraints prevented me from looking deeper, so don't take this explanation as the "official" reason.

On the other side we have writers who for all we know are merely kids who passed English class and are trying to make a buck. These writers have leveled claims that the company is nothing but crooks. The evidence to support their claim seems to be the fact that they had to put forth extra effort to collect their money and the unforgivable crime of being a company based overseas marketing to Americans. We also have members of this forum condemning the company for using advertising gimmicks that all companies use to coax business ("most of our writers are..."). After reading Essay Writer's advertisements I find nothing out of place or improper with their adds; however, I did find a couple of typos.

Even if I include the convoluted instructions and rules to get paid that are designed specifically to trick a writer out of their money I still can't make the leap to call them crooks. I wish I could Amy but I just don't see the evidence. In the end it comes down to the word of a handful of people I don't know vs. a company who has invested loads of money and has no official complaints or investigations logged anywhere but on privately owned, heavily biased websites. This site for that matter is more biased than most. How? A small number of highly vocal writers have determined on their own that the company is nothing but a scam. What you have going on here is a smaller version that what happened when the minority elected our president; twice!

While the spirit of this site is noble the reasons it gives for calling a company corrupt isn't, by any stretch of the word. How can they imply that a company not owned domestically is corrupt by default? I don't see the relevance. There are hundreds if not thousands of companies doing business in the states as American owned and operated companies whose parent companies are based in Europe and Asia. By the standard set forth on this site and supported by some members, Honda, Toyota and Sony pictures, just to name a few, are corrupt as well. Going a step further all three companies have contractors (which is by definition what you are for Essay Writers) who are owed money or denied payment for violations or interpretations of trickily worded contracts. They also consider a company following allowed, legal business tactics to turn a profit a corrupt company too simply because those tactics don't agree with their personal ethics. I can't help but to ask how the operators of this site can allow such blatant disregard of fact and fairness. I refuse to believe they consider the word of a handful of disgruntled ex-contractors as fact. If they do then the fool isn't the writer who goes to Essay Writers but the writer who bases their decision on the content of this site.

Essay Writers is a company a writer needs to approach with caution. The same caution any contractor needs to take when approaching any company. Because of the sheer number of aspiring and newbie writers that will ultimately stumble into their trap I would even say more writers will not get paid than the ones who will. I'm sorry to say it but that's the business. It is dog eat dog. They are there to turn a profit just as you are. You want a fair wage and that cuts into their bottom line. Business law mandates you try to contract services as cheaply as possible without compromising quality.

You believe you're fighting the good fight. That you're protecting the new writer. Do you think that will grant you some sort of loyalty from him? That newbie who is going to get taken advantage of today will be knifing you in the back next year. You can't in good conscious hold a company responsible for the incompetence of the uninformed. The only way you can is if you're biased and if you are it is completely UNETHICAL for you to voice any opinion as fact involving that company. You can tell your story, you can call them crooks but you cannot do so without qualifying your statements as personal opinion based on personal experience. If you want to protect the new writer do so by sharing your story not by twisting your story into a perverted form of truth.

In the end the evidence isn't there to support the claims of this forum that Essay Writers is nothing but a scam. You seem like an intelligent woman Amy. Shelf your emotions for a second and view the evidence objectively. Surely you can at the very least agree that maybe you've got it wrong. If not, then you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that... I'm sure there are other issues we can find that we don't see eye to eye on.

I will be drafting my article next week. It will include all reference material, interviews and cleaner interpretations of the particular model Essay Writers uses to do business. If the result of my two papers are in by final draft I will include the upshot. If not, I will go over it in the follow up article down the road. For putting up with me today I will come back and place a link to the article or you can look for it in some of the trade publications. It has been fun going back and forth with you. You can think of me as someone under contract to promote the company if you want. You'll be wrong. All I can offer at this point is my word that I have no affilation in any way other than the account I signed up for as a contractor for the purpose of gathering information.

The L.L.C. doesn't need to be on file in the location of the remote office, remote address or even this country for that matter. It can be on file in the location of the home office or location of the parent company's home office. You're dealing with International Law at this point. As I said, the exemption was more confusing than anything I've seen before. Men and women go to school for years just to be able to grasp the basics then spend more time being tutored by mentors. Best I can tell, with the limited time I've spent on this so far, is your answers rest across the Atlantic Ocean. Until you get in touch with the Ukraine and search their records you really can't run around claiming they don't have one and expect to maintain credibility.


Did you read this after you wrote it? You called a business next to the address they listed and he confirmed that the company's parent company wasn't operating in that location and you in your expansive business knowledge deduced that they were committing fraud? "He" being a person not employed or involved with them in any way other than the fact that he's the neighbor to the address. Sound about right? Where is the fraud? They only need a physical address in the country to do business here as they are. Did you ever consider they're just leasing the address? Perhaps, they're operating a D.B.A. (doing business as). Did you contact the Secretary of State to see if there was indeed an L.L.C. on file? Or did you hang up and utter the word "crooks" and hit your keyboard?

What do you know about L.L.C.'s? You're making a Federal case out of a parking ticket with this argument. Having an L.L.C. on file only serves to benefit the ownership of the company. It does not protect the consumer or contractor. Limited Liability Corporation status limits the risk the owner is exposed to. It prevents another entity from registering and using the name of that company. With a company that walks a fine line such as this one do you really think they wouldn't have this protection in place? I'm afraid you weren't looking in the right place for the registration. I'm sorry to inform you but they are a valid properly registered company. That was one of the first things I had checked this morning.

Your other "evidence" isn't evidence at all. The fact that they made what you call fraudulent claims in their advertising is argumentative at best. It's all in the interpretation. Let's take your 1997 claim. Even if the company didn't exist on paper in 1997 the company could've existed back then. To best explain it I'll use my business as an example...

About six years ago I registered my company as a L.L.C. However, my company wasn't established six year ago, it was created four-teen years ago. For the record I list my establishment date as 1993. It is when I started proofing and editing for money. Sure, I didn't have the company name I have now but I was in business. Now if someone like you looked up my L.L.C and saw it was formed in 2002 and started running around claiming I'm fraudulently representing myself I would have you in court so fast it would make your head spin. If I could prove damages you would be opening your wallet. Under the conditions you're running around slamming Essay Writers they'd have no problem proving damages with you just as I'd have no problem. You're stating as fact that this company is creating fraud when in fact you have no evidence other than some typos and misunderstanding on your part.

I think the fact that your problem with this company is so personal that it is blinding your objectivity and common sense. I've had a couple of fellow writers read your arguments against mine and they can't make the leap either no matter how much leeway they give you. You want to see valid evidence of proof in their defense? Try opening your eyes. I laid out the steps you can take. Like I said, this stinks of an angry ex-contractor slandering the company by innuendo and boisterous speech. Are they shady? Absolutely. Are they criminally so? Not at all.


Again here you have faulty or incomplete information. There are different levels of advertising on Yahoo and other search engines. The spot they have costs a mint. So reserved is this spot that only two results appear in it and this company had both of them when I did my search yesterday. I have a copy of the terms of agreement they would've signed to buy the add space. I'll be sure to quote the buzz words for you.

Face it Amy, your arguments are all emotion and no content.

Ok Amy. Proof that you're uninformed.

Universal Research LLC has an LLC on file in the state of Virginia.

Entity ID: T029708-7
Acitvated on 2/03/06

s0302.vita.virginia.gov/servlet/resqportal/resqportal?&rqs_custom_dir=scccisp1

When the page loads click on the number 10 box and it will turn yellow then hit "enter" on your keyboard. When that page loads type in the name of the company and hit enter. It will bring up that LLC plus old LLC's the same company once used.

After I read your LLC comment it took me an 30 min to find this. How much time and energy did you really put in to substantiate your claims? You were wrong about this, I wonder what else you were wrong about...

I have to side with gibreel Amy. You come across as prejudice. It's the main reason I was picking on you earlier today. There is a mean hateful undertone to your postings whenever you mention writers and companies from other countries.

FYI in case you haven't seen it yet I located the LLC for that company you said didn't exsit. I posted a link on the thread.

First I would like to address a typo. That site doesn't list all the LLC's the company in question owned. In my haste I assumed the other names on the list were old names as all the other listing were inactive. I did catch my mistake but Amy replied before I could edit it.

As for the possibility that they stole the name. I Just did an online search and the only companies that show under that name belong to the same people who own Essay Writers. And for the record Virginia is the only state where the theft can take place so if you find one in another state it doesn't count. However, for a fee you can obtain a copy of the LLC and that will remove any doubt as to the owner of the LLC. I will purchase it in the morning when they open.

You can further research this at The State Department on a federal level. They will have information on file about the ownership of this company since it is international.

They claim to be American - LIE.

In a sense they aren't lying, again, it's a business thing

They claim to hire ONLY Master- and Doctoral-level writers - LIE

You are lying. We went over this in another thread and by your own evidence you were proven wrong due to the fact they used the word "most".

I'm sure the native language speaking thing has a "most" in there somewhere.

They claim to have been providing papers through their site(s), actively, since 1997.

You can't say that statement is false. You haven't done the research to make this claim false. They could've and probably had other company names doing the same or similar thing that makes this statement true. In order to disprove that statement you would need to obtain every name they've done business of this nature under and compare them to the dates and even then, as I explained before, it really doesn't mean much one way or another.

By the way, I, or anyone else on the planet, can open an LLC in 30 minutes at BizFilings.com.

Amy you're grasping at straws here. That is a state website. That LLC is registered by the state and on the states computer. If you've had any dealing with state government you know nothing takes 30minutes to do... and you're certainly not going to get them to fudge a date. Also, I can tell you from personal experience that you can't file and LLC on line. They require actual documentation.

Sweetheart, you have a serious problem and you need help. You're mean and vindictive toward foreign writers and this site. You're desperately trying to maintain that these people are crooks in spite of all the holes that have been shot in your claims. I'm sure I'm not the only one who notices how personal you're taking this. I would love to know what they really did to you to warrant such hatred. You remind me of one of my daughters when they're trying to convince me they're right about something they know they're wrong about. You really need to push away from the table on this subject because all this anger is going to burn you up, or worse. There are serious legal issues you could be facing. I've already proven you to be libelous on two points here. I'm sure if I keep looking I could find more.

Whatever happened you need to let it go and move on with your life. Nothing you do is going to put these people out of business. For every writer you chase away from that site three will be there to take their place. They have the pulse of writers and they know how to exploit them. They aren't breaking any laws in doing so, they're just doing business. The only one acting in an unethical manner is you.

Truth be told I haven't explored the legality of this bizz. In my opinion the entire thing is unethical. Consider the possibility that one of these students using purchased papers could one day be your doctor.

I can see your point but I disagree with it. Professors hand those assignments out for a reason. If an assignment is given to a student to do a report on space flight and the student purchases the paper what has he learned? Consider how much information you take in when you're researching a paper that you don't use in the final product.

Don't forget the researching skills you develop when you research your paper. What happens if that doctor you mention runs across a patient with a condition he's never seen before? Had he researched all his papers he'd have an easier time researching the patient's condition.

My mistake for taking you at YOUR word; at that time I assumed you researched your claims. My comments on their claims were based on a post earlier in this thread. You're the one who posted the quotes not me. Legally speaking the claims on a website's home page doesn't override statements elsewhere on the site. The law requires that all pertinent information be present. The information on the homepage is qualified within the site and falls under the same protection and interpretations as "fine-print" on a contract. Call a lawyer and spend the money to be advised before you go making claims you know nothing about that could potentially hurt a person or company - unethical behavior.

FYI it is your persistent propensity to call these people criminals in the face of evidence to the contrary that screams "agenda" on your part. If you're so sure they are in fact criminals please file a suit. I assure you based on your arguments your suit wouldn't survive summary judgment.

"They tell American consumers that their service is "quality" because they only employ native..." That's a criminal act to you? That warrants your wrath? I was watching a commercial for bottled water in our country that told me their water was the best quality because they only use a specific filtering process... I know for a fact that they also bottle several different brands of water that don't make such a claim. It's the same water. Bottled at the same plant. Sits in the same containment tanks. Does this make them criminal? They charge more for the "specially filtered" water even though the cheaper water is filtered too. Are they crooks? The parent company is based overseas. Are they criminally negligent because they're marketing to Americans. By your standard, yes. By a legal standard, no. Somewhere along the line the water is filtered by this specific process which makes their claim legal just as somewhere along the line they do have native English speaking writers. You're trying to take semantics and spin them into a crusade; another piece of evidence that you are personally invested in your quest - unethical behavior.


Sorry but my statement is less misleading than anything you've posted about Essay Writers. I live in Ohio. I have a LLC registered in this state. I tried to do it online but the state wouldn't accept it. They require actual paper documentation with my signature in order for the LLC to be legitimate. There is no way at all to get that documentation to the in 30 minutes as you claim. I called customer support at the website you listed and asked what was the fastest they could set up an LLC in Ohio and Virginia. Their expedited service was the fastest they offered. Ohio takes 7 to 10 days and Virginia takes 48 hours but you wouldn't have documentation for up to 2 weeks. Feel free to contact them to verify this information 800-981-7183. Here is the emailed information from Bizfilings:

Tony,

Thank you contacting BizFilings regarding your formation needs and timeframes.

Our typical timeframe for expedited orders is 7-10 business days. Non expedited orders typically take 4-6 weeks.
The expedited service is available in our standard and complete formation orders, or can be added to the basic formation package.

Virginia offers a 48 RUSH filing service for an additional $300. This means the filing will be processed with the state within 48 hours, however Virginia is a delayed state and taking about two weeks to send out the state filed documentation. So, you will have the formation date within 48 hours, then the documentation in about 2 weeks.

Please contact our office directly at 1.800.981.7183 or by replying to this email if you have any other questions, or if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,
Myhia Fosshage
Customer Service Representative
BizFilings
1-800-981-7183 ext. 224
608-827-5300 ext. 224
608-827-5501 Fax
bizfilings

Ohio and Virginia are the only two states that are relevant here. Ohio because my statement was made based on my experience here and Virginia because that is the state where the LLC in question is from. You're comment about the 30 minute LLC was to imply that maybe Essay Writer's people read this thread and created the LLC to cover their rears. As I pointed out before that LLC is on file with the state and even if they just got the LLC you can't coax the state into fudging the activation date. Just another piece of evidence to support my claim that you have a personal agenda and you're willing to use misinformation and misdirection to make you seem right - unethical behavior.

You also implied they could be using a stolen name. I contacted Virginia and they verified the ownership of the LLC. I researched the ownership and Essay Writers was among the list of other companies owned by the ownership of the LLC in question. IN short, it isn't a stolen name as you implied. Yet another example of the company not breaking the law as you claimed they are. Take the time, if you wish to argue this, to do a little research before popping off at the mouth, or keyboard in this case. It appears at no time did you look at anything with an objective eye. You see only what you want to see to help you build your case with reckless abandon - Unethical behavior.

The long and the short of it is that nothing is going to back you down. My statements are easily verified by minor research where yours differs with every post. If a neutral reader happened across this thread they could easily determine who here has the real agenda here. I have been balanced with my support and condemnation of this particular company. Read that as, I have said both good and bad things about them. You on the other hand can't make the same claim - ethical behavior. You have been steadfast in your unsubstantiated accusations of criminal activity even in the face of evidence exonerating them - unethical behavior.

This site is littered with your hateful statements toward writers from other countries. Your comments to and about these writers borders, if not crosses, the line between racisms and prejudice. What is even more concerning is you don't even realize just how mean and hateful your comments are; a hallmark of most racists. You're also guilty of posting thousands of words of hate and venom toward overseas essay companies who market to American clientele. You and a couple others are trying to spin me as a company rep but I need do no such spinning to expose you as a person with some sort of vengeful vendetta against these companies and "ESL" writers. Your hate and anger are tantamount to intolerance and that is the most unethical a person can get.

In the end you're nothing more than a person with an axe to grind with this company. Somewhere along the line the company did something to you that drove you crazy. I'd be suspect of any reason you'd post, as seldom do people as crazed as you reveal the real reasons for their insanity. On more than one occasion you've purposely conveyed false or twisted information to support your claims that these people are criminally negligent. I've done my best to dispel your half-truths and outright lies. Not because I have a vested interest in this company but because it is fair and just to do so. I'm sure you'll hit the keyboard, foaming at the moth, to attempt to spew more misinformation in an attempt to prove your personal feelings about this company are how this company does business - unethical behavior.

Punching holes in your "evidence" is rather simple as the truth doesn't support you. You say an LLC can be obtained in 30min and I've proven that statement wrong. You claimed that they didn't have an LLC on file and I've proved that wrong and provided you and other readers the direction to follow to see for themselves. You've claimed they have intentionally mislead the public and I've shown you, in your own evidence, how that isn't so. The list goes on and on. You consistently show yourself as someone who has a personal vendetta and a person who is willing to do anything to provide support for her personal crusade against this company. In the business world and in the real world that is textbook unethical behavior.

Zig-Zag, the cigarette paper makers, knows most people use their product to smoke week yet they still manufacter the papers. What's your point? More hair splitting and holding them to a higher standard than you hold others.

I wonder is this the foundation of all your hate and anger. Were you constantly passed over for work that was given to "ESL" writers?

I bow to your greatness. I've been trying to figure out a way to articulate that point.

you do what you can, I suppose.

Given Amy's silence I believe I can rest mine too.

Pious, it's not my site. I have nothing to do with it at all.


That was just a minor point in her entire argument. She was running around claiming they were crooks when in fact there was no such evidence that they were. THAT'S what I took issue with. There are many reasons for that claim being on their site. Most of those hinted toward an oversight, misunderstanding or even incompetence... none of those reasons hint toward criminal action. I make that assertion because the rest of their claims were accurate albeit barely so at times.

As I said, she condemned them without researching and she misrepresented "evidence" and manufactured it when she needed to. That is unfair no matter what sort of suspicious persons they may or may not be. In the end her unfounded claims were steering aspiring writers away from what could be a valuable lesson for them, a confidence builder or supplemental income. In any event all this was an effort to provide accurate information to those people so they could make a well informed decision, not to defend the site.

I'm not labeling the "facts" as hate and anger, I'm labeling your actions and words as hate and anger. I'm sorry if you don't understand that.

Reading Comprehension 101:

What was said...

"I agree with you Rat, it may be easy to file for incorporation of an LLC but surely there are other documentary evidence legalzoom.com/LLC/Virginia-LLC-Formation.html These filings/documents once approved by the State would enjoy the presumption of regularity. Such legal presumption CANNOT be overthrown by self-serving, unsubstantiated personal assertions."

What was meant...

He agreed with you and your implication that it is simple to establish a LLC but that was all he was agreeing with you about. That is evident with the word "but" which is where he left the Amy which hunt in favor of my points about the legitimacy of the company and their right to do business with you unjustly accusing of committing crime.

Amy at no time have you presented anything that would withstand the most charitable definition of evidence. You latched onto an apparent oversight and built a case against them based solely on your personal opinion and apparent prejudice. I had to launch 5000 word posts because wherever I left any ambiguity you twisted it around and framed it as evidence. In several posts with you on this and other threads I listened to your "evidence" and set forth proving or disproving it. Had you're evidence been true I would have been right there with you condemning the site. The simple fact is that everything you presented didn't withstand the litmus that evidence must hold up under and without that standard we have no choice but to side with the company and not you. You may very well be right about them; however, you haven't made your case, it's that simple. Even Baltar was acquitted because the evidence wasn't there.

No Amy, I didn't know what you meant. I doubt you knew. Once, you claimed that I wasn't on your level behind a keyboard. I agree with you. I would've made it crystal clear what I meant by "30 minutes". In the context of the post you were inferring that they quickly ran out and created and LLC to cover their rear. You call me a spinster but you've twisted everything you had shot down just as you're trying to change the meaning of your post now that you were proven wrong; yet again. Go through and read your posts and my replies. Mine are facts to dispute your posts which are the same four points worded many different ways in a vain effort to prove a company that wronged you corrupt. Why don't you come clean with us, what did this company or people do to you that hurt you so deeply? If you want us to believe you're acting in an ethical manner you MUST disclose that information? Do you keep the real reason for your motivation private because you know that people knowing it would destroy what little credibility you have left?

Yes, I didn't know what ESL stood for when this started but unlike you when I didn't know something I didn't make up an answer that suited my position, I asked questions and looked for the truthful answer. This entire debate has been done on the fly, due in part to your lies and half-truths. When you do something like this in this manner, mistakes are bound to happen. I noted when I made mistakes or misquotes, you have not. How can you call me biased when you won't admit your mistakes?

This is nothing more than another tactic Amy employs when she can't twist my words against me.

In closing I will leave it to whoever comes across this thread during their research of this company. There is enough truth here to disprove your lies and show you as nothing more than a scorned woman out to make that company pay for hurting her. If I were to draw their attention to anything I would draw it to your declaration that this company had no LLC on file. Then I would point them to the post which not only stated they did, in fact, have an LLC on file but also had the link and instructions to prove it. That and a little commonsense will go a long way in relegating you and your allegations to insignificant status.

In another point that may help prove I'm not affiliated with this company in any way I will say this: If I were affiliated, Amy would be on the receiving end of a libel lawsuit, this website would be named as a co-defendant for allowing her to run unchecked making such damaging statements. In addition to the lawsuit you would've never seen on post by me as most of my information would be the evidence used to prove her guilty and the site guilty of contributory negligence.

I've said all I need to say on this matter. This will give you an opportunity to twist my words once again and have the last word on the matter. Not all people are as delusional and devoid of commonsense as you are. Sometimes I forget that. I won't change your mind no matter what proof I present or how many times I prove you wrong. I've done my bid for God and Country, if just one person avoids making a decision based on your lies and half-truths it was worth the effort.

I'm not sure if she's correct about this either. When your research has to cross an ocean things slow down. When that information gets to my desk I will make sure to let you know either way.

Too often in this country is the loudest considered the one telling the truth. Sadly that sort of tactic is employed when a person can't make their case.

Make no mistake about it, had Amy's claims turned out to be true I would've been right there with her demanding this company be put out of business.

I would agree with you and add that she also has some insecurity issues.

I took no offense. I firmly believe in a persons right to feel how they want and to voice their feelings accordingly. Not to mention you were provoked.

One last thing I forgot to put in the above post... I didn't see it on my clipboard when I was proofing.

On a different thread an ESL writer asked this question:

Post #2 answered his question and was completely on topic.

This was Amy's answer to his question:

This is the same theme over and over again from her. With every question put on the forum she makes sure she posts something to that effect. How can she say she has no agenda? I'm sure she'll be able to twist it into relevance

Rat, how much is essaywriters.net paying you to be their "typing head"?

Ok, let's try this again. Please use your eyes and engage your brain as I explain this quote to you again...


The part he is agreeing with me on is with my fight agianst your assault against a company without any substantial evidence.

"Such legal presumption CANNOT be overthrown by self-serving, unsubstantiated personal assertions." Hasn't that been my position all along? It for sure hasn't been yours, it still isn't yours.

Again you're only seeing what you want and trying to pass off made up evidence agian. YOU claim to be a writer. Is that not a paragraph? The last sentence of the paragraph is the conclusion; the first sentence his position...

I agree with you rat, Such legal presumption CANNOT be overthrown by self-serving, unsubstantiated personal assertions. which was the point of my argument. The rest of the paragraph was filler to qualify and emphasise the final sentence. Christ Amy, that's one of the first lessons we learn in grammar class.

"it may be easy to file for incorporation of an LLC" what's missing in this fragment is the tagline of "as Amy claims". However, the tagline isn't needed because of the placement of "may" and "but" in the sentence. If you're as skilled a writer as you claim to be you would've seen this. Perhaps some of this forums writers could verify this.

I find it funny that out of a 2000 (est.) word post that paticular thing was the only thing you can find to comment on.

As for your inflamitory comment that I am a paid rep of that company... find a way to send a private message on this forum or direct me to another forum and I will give you my contact information, real name and just for good messure my accountant's number so you can verify that no money I recieve comes from them or any other company they own or are involved with. I have no problem allowing you to troll around in my world to satisfy your doubt about my motive, do you have the ethics to come here and say you were wrong about my motives or will you just twist things around and begin slamming me as you are that company?

Consider your punk card pulled. If you fail to take up my offer then you have no place questioning my motives. And you know what else, screw proofing this post, you can deal with the typos and miscues of spelling!

Thank you for proving my point Amy. You're only paying attention to the words you feel will help you and ignoring the rest because they go against you. I suspect when he sees this he will set you straight. You go on trying to frame this very minor issue as a victory for you, it doesn't matter to me nor does it take away from the fact that your opinion of that company is just that... an opinion; not fact.

With that I am out of this discussion. I'm sure Amy will post some half-baked interpretation of my latest post and I just want to let all who are reading this, know that my lack of a reply isn't in any way, shape or form me conceding her point. It does mean that all that needs to be said on this topic has been said and I will not indulge her warped definition of evidence.

I'm sure by now most of you realize what she stands for and what lengths she'll go to just to pass her personal feelings off as fact. Reasoning with a person emotionally charged as Amy is pointless. She's only going to see what she wants and she will continue to ignore reason. She will continue to see only the few words she can twist in her favor and ignore the many words that go against her. She is neither fair or balanced in her opinions and as such nobody should give them any credence. I would suggest you approach any comment she makes on any topic as you would approach one made by a child.

I've seen this type of person before. Usually they turn out to be a kid trying to play in the adult world. I highly doubt she holds the job of editor as she claimed in a post. I'd even be willing to go as far to say she is more than likely a high school student playing around. It is the only thing that makes sense given her actions throughout this site. Only a kid or mentally ill person would conduct themselves in such a manner. Be sure to understand that I am not passing this off as fact, only my opinion.

I've thrown down the gauntlet. I have given her an invitation to check me out till her heart's content. She is free to review the small mountain of research I've done involving this argument and she is free to post her conclusions here minus my real name. The only condition I have is that she is honest and ethical in doing so, both traits I feel she doesn't possess due to her adolescent age.

You are so stupid it isn't even funny. Keep splitting those hairs, somebody may think you're right sooner or later.


Pious, I get all bent out of shape whenever somebody is passing false information about anything, one or business. Writer's love to argue, just one of my personality traits as my jumping in posting this shows. And I agree with you; this was a nasty debate and I shouldn't have let myself to be drawn into it. When I saw the nasty way she talked to ESL writers I was angered; that sort of prejudice shouldn't be left unchecked. I have a question for you.

What is the difference anyway if I were associated with them? Have I not been truthful and accurate with my statements? Have I not corrected myself when they were wrong? If I were associated with them why did it take me so long to locate the LLC? Wouldn't I have been able just to make a call to ask my "boss" (Amy, the quotes around boss mean that I am speaking hypothetically and not literally; however, I'm sure you'll find a way to twist this into me admitting to being invested). More importantly, wouldn't I have access to records involving Amy and what they "did" to her and publish that information to show her true motives? Why would I limit my defense to just this company, why not the parent company and all the companies they own or manage? I mean there are so many holes in the entire argument that I have any involvement with this company. Don't be as blinded as Amy is to the truth; don't give in to her tactics of misdirection.

I find it funny how she's arguing with someone who she used as proof to support her claim with what they meant in the words that person posted. Given a choice between believing someone who wrote something and someone who merely read and interpreted that writing, I would side with the author every time; surely they know what they meant when they were writing it.

Amy, I have addressed the points in both those posts on more than one occasion with you and on more than one thread. I'm sorry if you either didn't see them because they proven you wrong or distorted by you, yet again or you didn't understand my reply. You had four points for your claims I addressed over six points... it's been covered; however, keep implying that I didn't, for sure someone will believe you that my "ignoring" them makes everything I said a lie.


Yet another example of you seeing only what you want and misinterpreting something someone said. I NEVER said it is difficult to register an LLC, which I've proven to be true, I never said it wasn't easy. When you posted that anybody can file and LLC online in 30 minutes I did tell you that it is impossible to do so. I was just about to clarify my point but after seeing the forms from bizfilings you need in either state to file I would love to meet the person who can fill in all that information in under and hour let alone half that time. I suppose if they used the same half-assed research and detail to truth and acuracy they could, but most of us don't work that way.



These are all of the mentions I made that in any way can be interpreted as me attesting to the ease or difficulty in creating LLC's. Where exactly do I say they are difficult? Please, point it out to me without using your wild imagination in interpreting my words.

Why would I? I've done it. All you need to do is fill out the paperwork, send it in and wait. Learn to understand what you read before trying to pick it apart sweetheart. What you are doing here is trying to develop credibility by getting hung up on a semantic. What relevance is there even IF your interpretation is the right one? In your eyes if you are right it will prove the rest of my argument wrong. In truth, the rest of his statement is true. Don't get your underwear in a bunch, nobody has taken away the fact that you did in fact say setting up an LLC is easy, just as I said that the existence of an LLC brings a certain level of legitimacy to the company.


The last person to know they are prejudice is a person who is so. If you were able to insert such objectivity into your life we wouldn't be having this debate at all*.

*Subtext definition: Since you are incapable of understand true meaning out of a statement I will spell it out. That sentence means if you were able to be objective enough to determine you weren't prejudiced you would be able to be objective enough to view the facts and admit YOU ARE WRONG!

Ok, I know, she drew me into this again. I meant to reply to pious but couldn't help pointing out more of her ridiculous comments. Sorry, my bad.

Having been a writer for some time now... If I were you I'd find a different field of writing to get into. Not because you're an "ESL writer" but because the wages in this field aren't impressive enough to be worth the time and energy.

That said, if you must write in this field I would advise you to keep plugging away. In the end, the only people who care about where you're from are people like Amy, what really matters is the quality of your final product. Good luck.

Whatever Amy. I went through all 15,000 plus words I've posted on this topic and found several instances where I did. I'm sorry if it wasn't to your satisfaction... again, you're acting like a drowning man clinging to a block of wood in a desperate attempt to save their life... do you get that or do you need me to define the sub-text for you?