On Average, a well educated ESL writer is better at academic writing than a 'native writer'

I want to base this post purely on facts arising from my personal experience:

1) ESL students are, on average, poorer in conversational English and, as some know, this is the precise reason WB and the rest of her crew get the arsenal to dismantle ESL writers' arguments. Keep in mind that the dominant variety of the English language used in these forums is mostly conversational English which pose a little problem to ESL writers;

2) ESL students are, on average, better at academic writing compared to Native writers. This is because native writers are influenced by the conversational element when writing professionally;

3) From my experience, ESL students(who don't buy essays) produce much better academic papers than native students as the former tend to use sub-standard, conversational English when writing academically.

4) Thusly, a well educated ESL writer is more competent (on average) than a Native writer in writing academic and technical oriented papers.

This is precisely why WB/Pheelyks write better English- since what is used in this forum is conversational English - but would fare just about the same as an ESL writer when it comes to academic writing- if not worse.

Related:

I can no longer differentiate between 'genuine' American/UK writers and 'fraudulent ESL writers

Let me put this in black and white:

As my battle to rid off the universities cheats who shouldn't be there in the first place rages on and, additionally, as my battle to rid off the internet writers who help students cheat the system, I will not:

a)Make a distinction between 'genuine' American/UK writers as exemplified by pheelyks et al AND 'fraudulent', unqualified ESL writers as exemplified by Meokhan et al.

In fact, as my battle takes shape, I am no longer in a position to consider any writer 'genuine' or 'fraudulent'; if you are a writer who helps students cheat then, from my corner, you are a scammer, a wily bag.

Setting aside all of the complete nonsense and baseless assertions in your post, I must make you aware of something: you're not qualified to judge anyone's writing in the English language.

You now retort to your usual bile once slapped by universally accepted facts.
You are not qualified to lecture anyone on honesty/competence especially after your recent involvement with a fraudulent operative

Can you please post a link to ANY legitimate source that supports ANY one of your silly assertions?

As i have told you in another thread where i GAVE evidence that 2 students bought essays and the TWO did submit them for grading, i will no longer bother to furnish you with any more evidence..i will no longer debate with you IF YOU CAN ONLY RESORT TO INSULTS once i slap you with facts

This is a stupid argument. It is absolutely the case that if you take a Ph. D-level writer whose second language is English that they'll probably write better than a high school graduate. But that's not the comparison. In the industry, there are people generally from their 20s to 40s who do freelance essay writing. They're all writers, and they're in this trade instead of another because their writing skills are presumably at least good enough to make it profitable (that is, they can at least type fast enough to warrant doing it instead of something else, etc.) In that competition, someone whose native language is English will nine times out of ten (if not 95% or 98% of the time) be a better writer. I've seen a few good non-English writers. I've seen an order of magnitude more bad ones.

We need to clarify what exactly defines a native writer. A well educated and articulate ESL writer will undoubtedly write better than the average native speaker, but the average well educated ESL writer is unlikely to outshine the average well educated or professional native English writer.

I couldn't agree more.

I suppose that well-educated native English speakers with any degree of competence and legitimacy would rather find fitting, fulfilling jobs - in the academia, for instance - than hustle shamelessly in the murky 'underworld' of academic writing.

This implies that what many "native" academic writers have going for them is their nativeness as opposed to actual experience/familiarity with the rigour, formality, linearity and overall intellectual style nuances required to produce good academic papers.

Many "native" writers are often too conversational, informal, and flimsy in their writing style.

On the other hand, well-educated ESL writers are more likely to have the necessary awareness of the stylistic and substantive elements that underpin formal and academic writing. As an ESL writer myself, I certainly fall into this category.

Accordingly, the plethora of international students who are non-native English speakers ought to be mindful of these factors when choosing an academic writer.

As an ESL international student in the UK, Australia, Canada, the United States and elsewhere, you should never presume that a native English speaker's "nativeness" is enough to guarantee a well-written paper.

I hope it makes sense.

Antarch, all of the vocabulary in the world won't save you from basic errors using articles. You can have a "plethora" of this and a "substantive" that, but if you can't get "a, an, and the" right, you still come off looking like a complete idiot... especially to those lazy, native-speaking conversationalists you so disdain (and whose "flimsy," informal ease you are so obviously jealous of).

As a teacher, I know your exact problem. You are very careful, but you simply aren't in a position to put in much time immersed in the language. You study, but you don't converse. As a result, your English appears artificial, stilted, and, due to your inattention to the fundamentals of the living language, totally, goofily retarded.

Really? REALLY? What's sad is that you don't even understand/recognize the error. Typical. Antarch, did you come back just so that I can OWN you again?

Do you think that nobody notices how you conveniently compare "native writer" to "qualified, ESL writer"? What about the "qualified, native writer"?

Oh, and why are all of the "qualified, ESL writers" working in the essay industry instead of "in the academia"?

Any professor worth their salt can spot a non-native English writer miles away. All it takes is one of those tell-tale clues (e.g., "the academia").

With all due respect, getting advice on essay writing from an ESL writer is like getting advice on sex from a virgin.

Which one, Nabokov? Rushdie?

I believe that what matters in this industry is the actual English ability of the client that the writer is developing the written work for. Depending upon the English skills of a student, he will either do well with an ESL writer or a native speaker. It all depends upon the image that the student wants to reflect upon his professor regarding his writing skills. A native speaking English student will require a native English speaking writer as well. That is because the teacher of professor already knows that the student speaks English well and will therefore reflect the same in his written work. If the student is an ESL, he will do well to hire an ESL of the same level as his own English speaking and writing skills. The objective of pairing the writer's English skills with the needs of the student is simple, it throws the professor off the scent of a "ghost written" paper from the student. That is why I am convinced that an ESL writer and a native writer will both do well in terms of academic writing for their client, depending upon the specific requirements of the student.

Smiley73, have you not studied the forum at all? You are entirely missing the point. Nobody's claiming that all ESL writers are incompetent. Nobody's claiming that they don't have a place in the industry (if specifically requested by a client). The problem is that the fraudulent companies from Ukraine, Pakistan, India, and the Philippines misrepresent their 95% ESL, incompetent writers as "native English-speaking, American writers with Master and PhD degrees from American universities." That is fraud. Period.

If I pay a Porsche dealer for a suped-up Porsche, but he delivers a used Subaru to my house, I'm going to be pretty damn pissed. That's been their game since 2005.

Correct; many students / customers are led to believe they work with native English speakers/writers (AND pay the premium price), but in reality their order is completed (IF it's actually completed) by a second-grade ESL writer who lies about his or her credentials.

@writers2beware I never implied any of the information that you stated in your post. I was merely relating the information that I know to be factual and true based upon my previous work experience at academic writing companies. In most of the orders that were placed with the companies I worked for, a specific instruction had to be stated by the student regarding the level of English writing abilities they needed the writer to have. ESL students say, "I prefer a non-native English speaker". The native speakers state the same.

That is why I made reference to actual English vocabulary and writing abilities of the writer. The students themselves make those requirements known when they place an order and the companies match them up with the writer closest to their requirements. The reason behind it is because they did not want to give away the fact that they are not writing their essays and have hired someone else to do so for them. I never implied that the ESL writers are incompetent, regardless of where they come from. I only stated my opinion which is that they can also do well in the field, regardless of their writing skills, based upon the need for their writing abilities by certain clients.

An ESL writer may be educated overseas and speak with an English twang, but that does not mean that he will be better than a native writer. A native writer is trained to write in the UK or US academic form based upon his education. His foundation for writing from grammar school all the way to college is what makes him a good writer. The fact that he grew up speaking the language means he thinks naturally in English. His writing skills were honed in English, his analytical expertise, was developed in the same language. These are writer traits that cannot be emulated by an ESL writer. These are the reasons why a well educated ESL writer cannot compete with the ENL writer. The educational background and writing foundation will always be what sets the two writers apart. While the ESL will be able to write papers in English, he will always have limitations when it comes to his writing abilities.

Nobody suggested that

To say that "on Average, a well educated ESL writer is better at academic writing than a 'native writer'" would be misleading. No one can write any native language better than a native speaker. Now, that means writing in terms of the language style NOT regarding quality or ability to write. I am a US writer, native English speaking, but to say that I would write British English as well as a native writer would be a lie. I am not going to know the full or correct syntax the same way a native speaker would. I can certainly write (and do for many clients) British English, but there will always be some word or phrase that a native speaker would present differently.

I'm an ESL writer but I would never broadly and blatantly proclaim that I'm better than native speakers. I do agree with the first comment to the post: oftentimes ESL learners have a tendency to come off as quite unnatural given that the focus is primarily on the construction of the sentence. I often find that when I'm editing works from fellow ESL learners, a lot of them have a tendency to come off as quite nerved and oddly misconstrued.

This is only because learning the language to be able to write in it is vastly different from learning how to converse in the language. Having said that, there will always be nuisances that an ESL writer cannot grasp because it's just not their first language. I would never say that ESL writers are better than academic writing. Academic writing in and of itself is quite tough; you can only be good at it through years of attempting to break into the business. This means that, to some degree, they can be at par with native speakers in writing - but it will come with some adjustment and self-reliance.

Are you serious? I agree that most ESL writers write worse than most ENL writers (there are exceptions), but to say that no foreigner can write better than your average ENL speaker is simply wrong. I deal with native speakers on a daily basis and I can tell you that some of them write far worse than some of the worst ESL writers I saw. That is not to say that most of them are like that, but rather that there are many who can't write a single sentence in the English language.

An ESL writer will only be comparable to a "native writer" if the ESL writer actually works on improving his writing skills, takes the time to properly research a paper, and learns to ask probing questions of the client during the writing process. These steps will help the ESL writer become good at his job. An ESL writer, who strives to perfect his English speaking and writing skills will eventually become fluent enough to write coherently in English. However, it is not just language prowess that is important in this case. The ESL writer must also show that he is capable of writing research papers in the required format, without any possibility of revision requests. Once an ESL writer begins to write sans any revisions, then he will have achieved the comparable status that I previously mentioned.