Can ESL writers ever match EFL writers / students?

How does ESL (English Second Language) and EFL (English First Language) apply to essay writing? Is it possible for ESL students to produce excellent essays that are not recognizible by a professor as ESL writing?

Definitely. I've explained several times that I learned English grammar and writing from my ESL father, Uncle, and high school English teacher. The problem that is so evident in posts from many ESL writers on this forum is that most of them have absolutely no clue that they're not anywhere near the EFL level of English fluency and they think that they have no obligation to divulge that they're ESL to potential customers because they think it "shouldn't matter" to them.

That's the problem. Teachers don't like to point out mistakes of students, either. I need to learn from EFL writers to improve my writing skills.

It's not really about writing as much as it's about things (like idiomatic expressions) that are picked up by ear more than they are learned formally. For example, even if you ignore all the spelling and vocabulary differences (and accents) between Americans and Brits, we still speak very differently in ways that are immediately and obviously recognizable to one another. The differences between the way Indian and Asian and African ESLs speak (and express themselves in written) English and the way those of us who are Americans speak and express ourselves in writing are very obvious to any American. In fact, some of the differences are so characteristic that it's sometimes possible to distinguish some ESLs from others and to identify where an ESL learned English. That's partly because certain idioms are commonly taught in other countries that are "correct" technically, but that just don't sound the way Americans speak because of how they're used. One example would be the way many Koreans speaking English overuse the phrase "oh, really?" There may not necessarily even be anything grammatically "wrong" with good ESL writing that still sounds totally different from the way we use English. There are good and bad ESL writers and good and bad EFL writers; but even the writing of many very good ESL writers still sounds like it was written by someone who is not American to any American reader, and especially to any American professor, (since you asked).

I'll continue reading this forum and learning from writers who don't make grammar or spelling mistakes.

I thing FW just explained that grammar and spelling mistakes are not the only, or necessarily the primary, problem.

Yes, provided they are proofread by an EFL writer ;).

Karmi, the reason why EFL teachers don't actively correct their adult students' discourse (and/or) writing mistakes is that it really doesn't help. Current SLA research informs us that just pointing out the mistake or engaging in recasts (repeating the utterance in the correct way) make little impact in improving an English language learner's speaking (and writing). There are aspects of any language that, once adulthood has been reached, are nearly impossible to master without errors. One example of this problem in speaking English is conjugating the third person singular (she/he/it) of a regular verb in the present tense; quite often students leave off the -s, and it may take many years for him or her to use the form correctly and effortlessly.

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Do I have a chance if I'm not a native English writer?

custompapers.com says it hires writers with english as native language only, i am not a native english speaker so do i have any chance?

Tediousme, you're just that- tedious.
ever since you joined this forum a few days ago, all you've done is to continue asking meaningless questions that rightfully goes unanswered.
If you cannot find your way around as a writer, you have no f****ng business prostituting your services. First, work on your glaring idiocy before coming here again with nonsensical questions.

And a little bird tells me you are incompetent to write anything.

Thank you for your kind words, i'll keep that in mind :)

Yes, and let me never catch you again asking meaningless questions. If you want a freelance writing job, go it alone like the rest of the goons and you'll not be forced to share your loot with the shadowy broker between you and the clueless student.

You have no chance - why don't you capitalize the letter "I" and "E" in the word "English"?

@TenaciousMe Since you are obviously an ESL person, you may find it difficult to get started in this business. Specially since your grasp of the English language maybe severely limited in terms of your sentence development and vocabulary. That is not to say though that you will not make it as a writer. If you can find a company that will hire you with your current English level of use and understanding, you can probably start writing for students who have the same level of English proficiency as you do. That way their papers will not be suspected of being written by someone else by the teacher.

Don't aim for the heavens at the start. Start slow and low. You can learn on the job. What you lack in English proficiency, you will gain over years are a writer. The basic requirement is that you understand English instructions. If you can understand basic instructions, then maybe you can start as a personal essay writer and move up from there as you increase your skills.

The problem though, is that even though you are a willing learner and passionate writer, these writing companies have screening procedures that you will need to pass before you can be accepted as an in-company writer. With the current level of English writing that I have seen here coming from you, I doubt you would pass that test and make it to the writers pool of better established academic companies. You may have to work for a few Kenyans and Ukrainians in the meantime. They will hire just about anybody off the street and give a starting academic writer a chance. They just need you as a seat filler anyway.

I believe they can.

If you're an ESL writer, then you probably speak another language as well. Are there dialects in that language? If there are, then haven't you seen people completely change the way they speak the language so that it sounds like the dialect that is not native to them? I've seen this happen with my mother tongue. I do not think English is so different from these dialects that someone who natively speaks or writes it one way could never change and start writing or speaking it another way. In my opinion, it may even happen faster with English because luckily, English grammar rules are so well-documented. FW gave the example of British and American English language differences.

I think that if an American were to live in Britain for a prolonged period of time, then they would be able to speak more like the Brits than the Americans especially if they were trying. To me, it is the same thing if a Brit decided to live in America for a prolonged period. Furthermore, I think it is different with writing because you do not need as much time to 'sound native'. A year is enough for anyone actively trying to change their English language style to do so up to a point where their original dialect is no longer detectable.

I think the first step for any ESL person seeking to change their writing style is to recognize where the differences in language expression come from. For many, awkward and noticeably ESL phrases come from the interaction between native tongues and English. If you really want to improve your English, you should try as much as possible to think in English rather than thinking in your mother tongue then translating it to English.

In this forum, I come across these question more than I want to admit. I have even posted something similar myself. I think the answers from some ENL speakers, especially those who admit to not knowing another language are misleading. The reason I think this way is because the label ESL is something that could never change no matter how good your language command became. I mean, even if I were to become an English professor, I'd still be ESL. At that point, however, I think I would stop advertising myself as ESL and letting everyone know that English wasn't my native language. The advice from some ENL members here seems to suggest that I would still need my work proofread by native speakers even at that point. Of course that is false and misleading, not to mention too pessimistic for anyone seeking to improve.

NB. This advice is for people who have already used the language long enough to express themselves understandably. I doubt it would work for someone who is just learning English

British English and American English aren't good examples because its the same language. Any experienced writer in this business routinely switches back and forth between the two. The differences (including idiomatic expressions) are relatively easy to look up and learn. When it comes to non-native English speakers, it's possible to speak English quite "fluently" while still being recognizably ESL and it's very hard to eliminate all ESL traces without having lived in the US (or with Americans) for a while.

I think you misunderstood me. My point was meant for ESL writers and speakers who have had enough experience with the language to a point where it becomes somewhat like a dialect for them. Again, I forgot to mention that speaking like a Native for an ESL person can be close to impossible. But writing is relatively easier and quite achievable for anyone who has it as a goal.

Any ESL writer will have specific elements of writing that are "odd" by ENL standards. However, really good ESL writers (you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand) can write idiomatically, whereas others write in a bastardized version of English that is almost always an instant red flag.

If an ESL writer were to truly work on his craft and develop it over time, then yes, he might eventually be a match for EFL writers. Working on the craft means finding a way to immerse themselves in the English world to the point that they neglect to use their own mother language already. That is the only way they can ever become a match for ENL and EFL writers. By creating a world where they speak, write, and think only in the English language, then they can begin to progress with their writing quality. They must also read quality English sources of information like newspapers and magazines. The must void the bilingual sources of news and supermarket tabloids like Us Weekly and People Magazine. The bilingual news sources need to be avoided in order to not tempt them to revert to reading their natural language and the tabloids, well, if they are going to read in English, they may as well increase their intellectual capacity as well. Tabloids will teach them to speak and think in "trash" talking English, which will not help them to improve the quality of their written work.

I agree with this. Is it that they cannot learn or is it that it is not a priority for them? Personally, I'm more inclined to believe that one who sets out to learn will be really good after a while.

I don't think you can learn to write in a convincing EFL voice just through practice, no matter how much writing you do, simply because you'll just be making the same mistakes over and over without realizing it. The only way would be to live with EFLs long enough to pick up idiomatic expressions and to have EFLs point out every awkward element of grammar and syntax that is characteristic of ESL English that you will, otherwise, never successfully eliminate from your English. Unless someone corrects you in real time whenever you're speaking English, there will probably always be easily-identifiable indicators that you're ESL in your English speech and writing. However, if you already speak English fluently and you have EFLs around you at all times to point out and correct every mistake, you could probably achieve EFL-like fluency in a year or two.

I don't think writing alone is sufficient, for the same reason you state. It pays to read actively too, in my opinion.

As Smiley73 above states, actively reading material by ENL people would help. Active reading here means noting the language use, phrases, vocabulary, finding synonyms etc.

I agree with you when you say that having ENLs correct and coach actively may help to a big extent. However, the reason the idiomatic expressions for ESLs persist is that that is not a resource they have.

I consider my ESL writers to be the second stringers in my company. They have the ability to write in English. They can write fluently in English. They even know the proper English grammar rules to apply in their writing. The problem that I have, is that they are prone to transliterating when left unsupervised, which leads to low quality essay submissions to the client. They are my writers who are held back from progressing in my company because of their writing weaknesses. While I give them every opportunity to advance to the rank of an almost EFL writer, very few of them prove to be able to do so.

That is why I always leave the option to hire an EFL or ESL writer to the client. They, of all people, should know which type of writer would best reflect their own English academic writing ability. I would never lump my ESL and EFL writers into one group. My EFL writers would be hugely disappointed in me if I did that so I never consider the ESL writers comparable to them in terms of writing skills.

While I am an ESL writer myself, I do also agree that there are limitations to being a writer in this language. I know, for instance, that I may never be treated as fairly as other writers are (ENL) because of the nature of my background. Regardless of this, I also agree that with sufficient work and effort put in, then I'll be able to at least somehow match with native speakers. This is quite difficult to attain still. There are a lot of companies who refuse to hire ESL writers because they are worried of the potential mistakes that may emerge. Trusting is laborious when you do not necessarily know what you are getting into. The best that an ESL writer can do is to try to prove himself/herself to the company and work their way up the ladder.

I'm going to say this as politely and as non-confrontationally as possible, but you're commenting in a thread whose specific topic is whether or not ESL writers can match EFL writers and just in your very short, seven-sentence post, there are at least a dozen examples of idiomatic and/or word-choice mistakes that make your writing easily-recognizable as ESL. If you're interested in discussing this, I'd be more than happy to list them for you and to demonstrate how an EFL writer might express those exact same ideas differently and correctly. The point is that it's not a matter of "unfairness" for a company or prospective client to treat you differently than they might treat an EFL writer. It's simply a matter of EFL customers preferring their essays to be written in grammatically and idiomatically-correct EFL English rather than in grammatically and idiomatically-incorrect and easily-recognizable ESL English. That's neither personal nor unfair.

EFL writers will always be higher in terms of writing standards than the ESL writers. The reason is simple, the EFL writers grew up speaking the language. It is their mother tongue, taught to them from the crib. They were educated in the American or European system of education, which means they are familiar with the writing styles and demands of the educational institutions. They are better trained to write in every way when compared to the ESL writers. While the ESL writers will be able to complete an English paper, a professor will notice when and EFL student has the writing skills of an ESL student. There are just too many differences in the educational background of the 2 sets of writers for me to believe that ESL writers will ever be able to write at the equivalent level of an EFL writer.