It takes a lot to be a Competent Writer

I have studied several debates here and, more often than not, they always polarize into two conflicting extremes: a) the native writers' pole and, b) the ESL pole.

Who can and who cannot write?
First, I must propose that proficient academic writing is inherently interwoven with technical knowledge expected of a writer engaged in a particular discipline. For example, one must be acquainted with the basic laws of general relatively to adeptly write about the state and general structure of the universe. Additionally, a competent writer must possess adequate research and comprehension skills to competently collate and interpret the vast chunks of knowledge he will gather in course of the research process. Finally, a competent writer must possess enviable writing skills to actually compose a substantive piece of academic work from the research knowledge accumulated.

I am of the opinion that lack of any of the three skills will jeopardize a writer's intention of producing an enviable academic work. Writers, then, must strive to improve their technical, research, and writing skills if they are to be considered competent.

My 4 cents.......

I agree.

The average, ESL writer in the essay industry is seriously lacking in the "enviable writing skills" department.

Since you claim that countless of them write as well as you do, that must mean that you are also "seriously lacking in the 'enviable writing skills' department." Tsk tsk...

Bingo!

You have the nerve to criticize others' logic? Wow.


Congratulations on adding amnadweeb (another fine example of ESL competence) to your list of comrades. The company that you keep is quite telling.

Tell me, how isn't it logical?

Saying that there are countless foreign, ESL writers who write as well as you do in the English language implies that your writing is comparable to the writing of the average foreign ESL writer. This is because if writing skill can be measured numerically (and it can), the average score of the countless foreign, ESL writers would theoretically approach the mean score (or average in common tongue) of any sufficiently large random sample of such writers.


Nice Ad hominem. Unfortunately no, it's not going to work. Amnadweeb agreed to my statement because he/she found it reasonable, not the other way around. The agreement does not add any credibility to the statement, nor does it take any away from it. More Logic 101, WBulls-i*. It's becoming more and more apparent that you've had no college education at all.

You miss-or conveniently choose to ignore-my point. If we were to compile lists of the people who generally support my positions vs. your positions, your list would be filled almost entirely with morons, liars, fraudsters, and ESL scammers.


No, it doesn't. My writing is virtually flawless, placing my skills amongst the finest of ALL English-language writers (native or ESL) on the PLANET, regardless of industry. The certainly modest number of ESL writers in the essay industry who write as well as I do are in the same class. It is disingenuous, completely illogical, and flat-out silly for you to extrapolate that the "average, ESL writer in the essay industry" possesses English-language writing skills that are equal to mine (or to those of ESL writers in my class who work in all industries).

Comprende, Senorita Dumba?

Your sickening obsession with getting the last word in no matter how pathetic your last word is while utterly ignoring the logic of the argument that you are supposed to respond to is well... sickening. ^_____________^

Ah, so you arrive on the scene, interject yourself into the debate, attack me with illogical assertions, and then chastise me for trying to get the final word in defending myself? Seek medical attention. It's become quite clear why you've never been able to establish a mainstream writing career.

You've yet to prove that my argument is illogical. Contrary to what your grade school teacher may have taught you, calling something silly and illogical does not make it so. Another thing that does not prove a point is getting the final word, contrary to what your grade school playmate may have fooled you into thinking. ^____^

Yes, I have . . . you just make believe that I did not already slap you in the face. FYI, moron, the "average" is hardly impacted by the rare and "modest" extreme.

No, you haven't.


Saying this does not prove it.


Again:


The fact remains that you said:


..and given that the above statement is true, it is logical to argue that:

What you need to prove is that my conclusion does not follow from the premises I used. You still fail to note that I did not limit my argument to ESL writers in the industry, but to ESL writers in general. Are you finally affirming that your writing ability is equal to those of the countless ESL writers (both in and out of the industry) that you spoke of?

Thank you for finally recognizing and admitting the source of your confusion and ignorance, assh*le. YOUR argument is irrelevant because you formulated it against an argument that I did NOT make! My contention is-and always has been-focused SOLELY on the ESL writers in the essay industry. All of the world's "ESL writers in general" do not work in the essay industry, and I have always been respectful of those qualified, ESL writers who work both inside and outside of the essay writing industry.

Thanks for playing, but you still need a lot of practice.

Sorry, you're still wrong. Even if you limit your position to ESL writers in the essay writing industry, these writers are still a part of the countless ESL writers that you initially spoke of. Unless you can argue effectively that the ESL writers who work in the essay industry are very different from the rest of the ESL writers, you still lose.

Competent writers in the essay writing industry that are employed by mainstream companies are still in the essay writing industry, are they not? So are you saying that your writing skills are equal to those countless ESL writers who are employed in mainstream essay writing companies? ^________^


Sorry, but until each person in this forum posts definite, undeniable proof of his/her ethnic origin, this question is worthless.

LMAO! Coward . . . .


No, they aren't. By "mainstream," I (of course) mean companies that exist in the realm of the general public's definition of "ethical," "legitimate," and/or "legal" businesses (regardless of how unfair the definition may be).

There are no "mainstream" essay companies. See my explanation above.

This is getting even more interesting.

I'm so saving the link to this thread.

Did you just imply that the essay writing industry does not exist in the realm of the general public's definition of "ethical," "legitimate," and/or "legal" businesses? ^____^

Uh-oh....

Furthermore, are you saying that the countless, competent ESL writers are in these legitimate businesses, whereas American writers are stuck in the essay writing industry?

Tsk tsk....


That's a logical response. Right, comrade?

Or you think I'm wrong again.

Yes, I absolutely did. And? (I gleefully await your stupid response.)


F you. This is what you do-falsify, twist, and intentionally misrepresent my statements because you can't fairly/successfully debate me on the facts.

Awww... you can't f*- me, didn't you claim to be a married woman? Hmmm...

No, what I do is expose your stupidity. Thank you for clarifying two positions:

1.) The essay writing industry is not considered by the general public as a legitimate/legal industry.
2.) The countless competent ESL writers are employed in legitimate writing businesses, not the essay writing industry. American writers can't hack it in these legitimate writing businesses, and so they are stuck writing assignments for ESL students (I think this is an absurd statement but hey, it's your position).

^___________^

What's your point, flamer? Did I ever claim that the general public views it any differently?


I never stated that "no" competent, ESL writers are employed in the essay writing industry.


I never made any such statement . . . not even close.

Congratulations on lying and misrepresenting my statements at literally every turn. I'll be saving this thread, as well. We'll see who makes better use of it.

Never claimed that you did. However, you can't have it both ways. So where are the countless competent ESL writers that you spoke of? If most of them are in legitimate writing businesses, then the implication that they were able to make it there whereas hundreds of American writers like yourself are stuck in this industry is reasonable. If most of them are in the essay writing industry, well... ^___^


How do you think the general public views this industry? Didn't essay writing companies only produce "model essays?" I wonder why "the general public" does not consider being an essay writer for university students a real job. Also, I wonder what all the talk about legitimacy among essay writing companies is worth when the legitimacy of the entire industry is questionable.

You intentionally insinuated and suggested that I did because your only chance against me is to lie and misrepresent.


I already answered that question. See my "mainstream" companies statement.


I never stated that most of them are in legitimate "writing" businesses. Just because a person is an excellent writer does not mean that he/she is limited to working for a "writing" company or bound to a "writing" position.


Wrong, but thanks for the peak into your twisted psyche. My stance on the average, ESL writer in the essay industry has absolutely NOTHING to do with American writers. Qualified writers-both native and ESL-have the same opportunities because their skills are indistinguishable. Your "reasonable" interpretation of the "implication" is moronic.

Perception and reality are two very different things, at least to me and other sane people. That the general public views the entire industry as "questionable" is a fact. It is also a fact that the general public does not have the slightest clue about the steps that the handful of legitimate companies take to abide by the law and prevent academic fraud.

True, but we're not talking about 1 person. Like I said, my argument is that most if not all of the countless competent ESL writers that you spoke of would probably be engaged in professions that have something to do with writing. Hence, I reason that many of them are in the essay writing industry.


Oh yes, it does. If you say that most of the countless competent ESL writers are in legitimate writing industries, then that means that they are not in the essay writing industry. This implies that the population of competent writers in the essay industry are mostly American (or British). Isn't that what you want people to think? That the competent writers in this industry are mostly Americans? However, if that statement is true, then my statement about American writers in the essay industry not being able to hack it in the real world, where the competent ESL writers are, becomes true as well. ^__^


...and none of this matters if the customer is just after a quality product. The point is that the high ground that is supposedly reached by being a genuine American company is lost when in the first place, people in America do not respect genuine American essay writing companies or the people who work for them.

Why, because the essay writing industry is so glorious, lucrative, and one of only a few options for employment around the world? Right.


Yes, for numerous reasons, the majority of truly professional writers in the essay industry are native English-speaking writers from the US, UK, Canada, and Australia. As for your "American writers not being able to hack it in the real world" extrapolation, that's simply asinine on multiple levels.


As I clearly explained, the general public is ignorant about how the legit companies operate. The poor reputation of the industry is the result of shady, foreign companies openly promising certain grades and blatantly encouraging academic fraud.

I feel like I should be the arbitrator here... Can't we all just get along?

A lot of American writers seem to think so. ^__^


Again we come back to the question of where the countless competent ESL writers that you spoke about are.


...


Really? Are you saying that before all the foreign companies came in, model essay writers for students in the U.S. were respected for their "profession?" ^_____________^ This just keeps getting better and better.

I have an idea. For the first time since joining this forum, why don't you try honestly debating and NOT twisting my words?

The massive onslaught of foreign ripoff sites began in approximately 2003. Whether or not "model essay writers for students in the U.S." received a certain level of respect BEFORE 2003 is a moot point because the general public did not have access to the internal operations and policies of the more legit companies at that time, either. My point is that, because of the foreign sites' blatantly unethical and often illegal advertising, the industry sunk to an entirely new low in the eyes of the general public. I know for a FACT-because I actually talked to a Google AdWords rep on the phone years ago-that Google's main impetus for banning ads for "term paper sites" (which it hasn't exactly stringently enforced) is the extensive pressure it received from teacher/professor groups that complained about ads promising things like "A+ grades" and "We write it and you turn it in." From clicking on those ads myself, I can tell you that-conservatively-at least 95% of them were from foreign sites.

I didn't "twist" your words. I merely inquired about something that was naturally implied by them.


Now that's what "COWARD" is in my book. ^_^ Moot point my foot. The issue is about the implications of your admission that the model essay writing company was never really accepted by the general public as a legitimate enterprise. You feebly tried to pin it on foreign companies (really, "access to internal operations"? HA!!! Couldn't you have done better than that? >.<) but didn't realize that you also want the public to believe that "local" companies have been in existence far longer than foreign companies have.

The general public in the U.S. never respected model essay writers. The legitimacy of the entire industry has always been questionable. Hence, it is all of this talk about which companies are legit and which are not that's moot. All that matters is the quality of the product. ^___^

Really? The debate into which you stuck your nose is about the unqualified nature of the average, ESL writer in the essay industry. You tend to change the subject and delve into tangent arguments when I dismantle your original argument, which is exactly what happened in this thread. Your first post:

Yet again, you miss the point. NEVER did I claim that the industry has been respected. What I've specifically stated is that the general public's view of the industry got MORE negative. Plus, because of the foreign site's overtly unethical and downright illegal advertising, teacher/professor/parent groups became enraged enough to file massive, extended complaints and petitions with Google.

No, I don't. That's a different argument. Now who's twisting whose words? That argument still stands. Your writing is comparable to those of the countless ESL writers that you spoke of (premise). If you can't provide an effective rebuttal to my argument that most of the countless ESL writers are in the essay writing industry (argument), then you cannot logically deny that your writing ability is comparable to the average ESL writer in the industry (conclusion).


Right, are you really claiming that it was the foreign companies that got the public "enraged?" ^___^

I repeat: The general public in the U.S. never respected model essay writers. The legitimacy of the entire industry has always been questionable. Hence, it is all of this talk about which companies are legit and which are not that's moot. All that matters is the quality of the product. ^___^

I will not even bothering countering that "argument" because ANY sane, unbiased person will tell you that it is ridiculous.


Yes, I am. I saw the ads for YEARS, the very same ads that pissed off the professors. I already told you that I clicked on ALL of the ads, frequently, over the course of several years, and at least 95% of them originated from foreign, ESL sites, the owners of which do not respect/understand American laws and/or basic business ethics as they relate to the "dos and don'ts" of the essay industry.


When an offshore company hires almost exclusively low-paid, foreign, ESL writers who can hardly type a grammatically-sound sentence to save their lives, the quality is inevitably going to suck major as*.


See, I make mistakes once in a while! I had the "ing" in "countering" on my mind while typing (err, at least intending to type) "bother." I got ahead of myself. S?-t happens.

Then you're wrong. Professors have been "pissed off" at term paper mills since such businesses appeared. In fact, Boston U sued American term paper mills in 1997 [1], 6 full years before, according to you, foreign companies entered the market. Furthermore, 25 years before BU filed the lawsuit against essay mills on the internet, it filed and won several cases against brick-and-mortar essay mills [2]. This led the state of Massachusetts to outlaw essay mills [2].

Clearly, essay writers have never been respected in the United States and the business has never been considered legitimate by the public. Hence, it is all of this talk about which companies are legit and which are not that's moot. All that matters is the quality of the product.

[1] community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19971109&slug=2571274
[2] thecrimson.com/article/1997/10/23/bu-sues-term-paper-service-after/


Suit yourself. ^_^ It remains a sound argument whether or not you attempt to counter it.


That is true with some companies regardless of their origin. What we've established here is that "legitimacy" has no value in this industry. Only quality matters.


Your defensiveness over a typo is amusing. The again...

4.) a typo is not an error. (ROFLMAO!!!)

Did I claim otherwise? No.


Did I claim otherwise? No.

For at least the third time, my position is that teacher/professor/parent groups became even MORE enraged, due to the overtly unethical and often illegal ads of the foreign, ESL sites that do not give a damn about American laws, regulations, and/or the basic "dos and don'ts" of the industry.


WRONG. Again, there is a massive difference between the public's general perception of "all sites" and the realities of how the handful of legitimate companies in the industry operate.


OK, so which of the handful of legitimate companies in the industry intentionally hires unqualified, ESL writers as a matter of practice?


The only thing you've "established" is that you believe that fraud, misrepresentation, and low quality are perfectly acceptable, because that is EXACTLY what the foreign, ESL sites provide. If you're going to claim that the general quality of writing/research provided by the foreign ripoff companies is equal to or better than that of the handful of legitimate companies, you're truly off your rocker.

You still don't get it. The point is that there is no such thing as a "legitimate" essay writing company. All essay writing companies, companies that write "model essays" for students, are sleazy. Writing "model essays" is a shady occupation. The articles also show that the general impression of educated people in the U.S. is that no matter what companies say, the service that they offer does promote academic dishonesty among students.


If you're talking about hiding one's country of origin, I'm all for that. If you're talking about giving clients low quality papers, I have always stood against that in this forum. I believe that every writer, just like every customer has the right to keep their identities secret given the shady nature of this industry. As for companies, their respective countries of origin do not matter. Foreign companies can hire competent writers just as well as American companies can, and some American companies receive complaints in this message board just as often as some foreign companies do.

Ultimately, there are good companies and bad companies, good writers and bad writers. It's all about quality. Your concept of "legitimacy" has no bearing in this industry.

The reason why you keep hammering at it is because you know that if you admitted that the industry is all about quality, you'd risk losing even more market share than you've already lost. Boo-hoo. :')

Stop going around in circles. It's petty and childish. I explicitly stated that the professors/teachers became MORE enraged by the addition of the ads, which led them to collectively take action in great numbers by successfully petitioning Google-over an extended period of time-with hundreds of thousands of signatures. To my knowledge, no such action had EVER been taken against the "essay" industry by massive groups of private citizens.

I'm not. Your position changed when I pointed out its flaw. You can ignore it all you want.

Based on my observations, it appears that both ENL and ESL writers can be competent writers. They both have a degree of proficiency by which a student can flourish and get good grades. However, that all depends upon the requirements of the student. If the student happens to be an ESL student, they do not tend to look for ENL writing styles. They would rather have a writer that can compose their papers based on their known degree of English proficiency. ENL students, require native speakers to develop their papers. That is why I engage the services of both types of writers. The competency of the writer is determined by the student hiring the services, not by anybody else.

A competent writer can be had regardless of whether that writer is ESL or ENL. The main qualification the writer must have is his ability to properly research and discuss the assigned project. It will help if the writer actually has a background in the field he is writing about since that will lessen the chances of miscommunication with the client.

The only difference that I can see between the two writers is the way that they express themselves in English. I have been told that my capacity to use the English language is proficient enough, but still obviously ESL. Since I never claimed to be an ENL writer in the first place, I see no reason for my English ranking to matter. An active ESL writer who can meet the writing demands of an ENL student will not receive complaints from the client, more so if the writer assigned is an ENL.

I think that the writer competency zeroes in on one particular requirement, that of his expertise and ability to actually write about the topic assigned. As @a1writer often notes, it is important to hire a writer with a relevant background but, doesn't on the job experience and collected knowledge count as well? If a writer has been at this job for decades on end, written papers on a massive number of topics, gained knowledge and experience through those practices, then I believe that it makes him or her competent for the job.

@noted

Regarding competency I would not order an essay from any freelance writer who does not have an appropriate qualification in the relevant subject area. You have to ask why reputable essay writing companies will not allow writers to take on assignments outside the sphere of their qualification(s). It is ridiculous for a writer with a degree in Ancient History to write essays on Dentistry.

Life experience gained over many years in one job might enable that person to write on the subject area relevant to that job. But where a writer professes to be competent to write on just about every topic going is another matter and I would avoid such writers.

Similarly I would not recommend a student studying in the UK to use a writer from Brazil, USA or anywhere else where education standards are lower.

@a1writer Most writing companies ask the writer for his list of writing competencies and do not allow writers whose qualifications do not fall under the client requirements to be assigned to a particular task. The writer is asked to submit his educational qualifications via college transcript and his actual college certification during the application process. This is the way that the bidding system protects the students from writers who might misrepresent themselves. The same protection does not apply to students who have independently contracted their writer. Which is probably the biggest drawback of the direct hiring method. It is up to the writer to be honest with his clients and indicate when he can and cannot work on a particular paper. I totally dislike it when a writer uses a client as an experiment tool to see how far he or she can push his writing skills. I am not referring to any writer in particular but I do know that there are some writers who do that. If it works out for them, well and good for the client. If not, oh boy! I do not even want to think about it.

This is very obviously true. As I explained previously, college students write dozens of essays in subject areas totally outside of their majors. Obviously, a highly-experienced writer can handle all of those essays and do them much better than most college students. I've also mentioned many times that I've had more nursing students as clients than students with any other major and that many of them have used me for years and years, from their freshman year of college through their post-graduate degrees; and several of them have used me for so long that they've actually referred their kids to me after they got to college and nursing school, themselves. I never took a single nursing course my life; but I have no problem, whatsoever, writing nursing projects, and all the way up to the PhD level, well enough that my nursing clients never looked for essays elsewhere after the first project that they received from me.