Can a non-native English writer be an excellent academic writer?

Is it possible for a non-native English writer to match the native writer's skills, knowledge, and the usage of the English language? Why or why not?

Yes absolutely.. this industry is dominated by non-native english writers.

Hey.. don't be fooled by my non-Caucasian good looks. I'm... more than meets the eye. ^_^

Another skewed post by Stewy. The matter at hand involves the multitude of unqualified, ESL writers strictly in the essay industry, not legitimate, well-educated, ESL writers in accountable or in some way regulated industries who have actually honed their English writing skills to the point at which the differences are non-existent between their writing and that of similarly educated, native English-speaking writers.

I'd be sincerely interested, Stewy, in you presenting an ESL writer (currently employed by your "company") who is a better writer than pheelyks, Lavinia, FreelanceWriter, or me.

You misunderstood stu4's question--he asked whether the skill level of a non-native writer could be as high as that of a native writer, not which type of writer "dominated" (i.e. was more populous in) the market. It is probably true that there are more non-native English writers working in this industry, but it is also true that the vast majority of these writers (yourself included) do not come close to matching the skills of most of the native writers.

In answer to stu4's ACTUAL question, of course a non-native speaker could become as skilled as a native speaker in any language, with proper study and practice. Most of the ESL writers in this industry, however, have not put the necessary time and effort into this.

it's not where you're from, it's where you're at.

It's definitely possible. I'm born & raised in NYC and the three biggest influences on my English skills were my German-born father and uncle and Tek Young Lin, my high school English teacher: all English grammarians and scholars. The problem isn't that non-native speakers "can't" achieve excellence as English writers; the problem is that it's (apparently) quite common for non-native speakers to confuse English speaking fluency/and perfectly competent writing with written English that is 100% unrecognizable as non-native. You can write very well but still not in a way that completely extinguishes the written analog of a spoken "accent." Same way many foreign speaker can never eliminate their accent 100%. In both cases, it's possible, but many more think they have reached that level than actually have.

That's the situation with some people here whose every post proves the point and who have absolutely no idea that's the case and think that pointing it out in the context of whether student's have a right to know the truth is an intentional insult to them. It isn't, but if I can tell you're a non-native speaker just from your forum posts, you have no business ever not disclosing that to potential clients in advance. If your clients are OK with hiring someone they know writes well but is a non-native speaker, I don't see any issue. They should have the chance to make that decision for themselves, though.

What everyone is assuming here is that writing good english is the only criteria for working in this industry(correct me if i am wrong)..

Will you need an MA in English to write a paper on Maths? or Physics? or supply chain management? No way.... When you write on technical subjects, your knowledge of the subject counts more than your ability to write good english... it is really easy to remember the list of all SAT or GRE words and use them in your papers to make an impression but does that also mean that you have the requisite knowledge of subject?

To bake a cake, one needs to know what ingredients to use and how to blend them. You're no baker.

In short, caca's senseless argument is that an idiot savant in mathematics is perfectly qualified to write a paper on mathematics (or on any other subject).

I have degrees in law and psychology but I don't speak French; therefore, I can't write a legal or psychology paper in French. If I spoke French well and wrote well, my written French would probably still be recognizable as foreign French writing. If I wrote perfect French, I'd still never take a paper on any subject in which I didn't have the requisite understanding to write.

Nobody's suggesting that writing skills or language fluency makes up for lack of substantive knowledge or vice-versa and nobody is confusing those two completely separate issues. Except you.

So all you mean is " Non Native Writers" can not work in this industry and must leave the space for " Native Writers" to rob and cheat " NATIVE CUSTOMERS"

What is your argument, exactly, caca?

Dancing Fool - your persistent failure to read and accurately comprehend the meaning of posts written in very uncomplicated English, say all there is to say about your qualifications as a researcher/writer. Your language use only confirms that you need to be locked up for daring to assume that you may work as a writer and, indeed, deserve payment for your written work.

This is getting to be horribly repetitive but ONCE AGAIN, nobody has said anything about non-native speakers not being able to work in this industry. E-W is a self-confessed ESL writer ... do you believe that your linguistic skills come anywhere close to his? You may have been a match for him when he was a toddler but, certainly not now ...

You can defeat WB in arguments? Interesting ... I always assumed that to effectively and constructively engage in any argument, one first had to understand the topic being argued. Given that you have problems in the area of comprehension, problems whose magnititude is matched only by your highly limited intelligence and your shocking immaturity, I really do not see how you can debate with anyone over anything.

Many of the ESL writers in this industry are wonderfully qualified - whether assessed from the academic or linguistic point of view. Not only do they have a place in this industry but there are companies which proudly declare that they hire both native and PERFECTLY QUALIFIED ESL writers. Unfortunately, the presence of ESL writers such as yourself in this industry has only served to immeasurably harm the reputation of non-native writers in general. The industry does not need to clean itself of non-native speakers but of non-native speakers of your ilk. Is that clear? Non-native speakers can be excellent, and many are, but you are not ...

As for your assumption that all native speakers are cheats ... is that what you want to debate? A ridiculous claim such as that is not even worthy of a response ...

If only you would take a moment to read your own posts and think about how they come across, you might stop posting ... in fact, you might even cut off the hand that ever dared to write a word in English ... as well as the head which allowed the hand to believe that it could write English on a professional level.

Of course it's possible, but it's obviously harder to write an academic language in a 'foreign' language than in your native tongue. A British-born writer would face equal problems if he tried to sell his services as a writer of academic essays in, for example, Finnish.

Right, with the reason being that a person is, quite naturally, immersed in his/her first language, culturally, academically, etc etc. Think of it this way ... you learnt all about the world around you through your native language; you grew up and matured through that language ... your native language is part and parcel of who you are and, to a large degree, you define yourself through it. Certainly, there are some excellent ESL writers (so am not putting any down here and have openly stated that we do take on ESL writers) and am not denying that at all. For the majority, however, it is pretty tough and, more often than not, they do not attain the level of proficiency particular to native speakers.

written and spoken English are inherently different. if a good ESL writer is well trained enough in prescriptive grammar, odds are that they will actually write as good or better than a native speaker.

Correct, which is why I owe my success to saturday morning cartoons, cheap Marvel Comics back issues, and threadbare paperbacks of Arthurian tales.

Right. I don't think that anyone contests that fact. The problem is that the vast majority of ESL writers in the "essay industry" do not possess such qualifications.

So what do you think should the minority of ESL writers who do possess the necessary qualifications do? Should we move to the U.S. and sign up with "legit" companies? :P

believe it or not, but I agree :)

Short answer: Yes.

mother tongue by amy tam explain really good the issue for us not english-born people.

I guess a non-native English writer can be as good as a native in terms of skills and knowledge for writing but as far as the usage the language is concerned, it is really hard to bit a native. It will always come naturally from a native speaker which in most cases is not the case with the non-native writers.

There are people who might not have English as their native language yet they are excellent academic writers.

True. And if your answer to a prospective customer's question "Are you a native English speaker or ESL?" is "English is not my native language but I am an excellent academic writer" nobody has any argument with you and the customer can decide whether or not to trust you with his work.

But this is also true:


Which is why some ESL writers lie to customers who ask. That's my only problem with (some) ESL writers.

Well it wouldn't matter which country you live in as long as you're taught english from the day you are born and mix with people who speak english too

Here is the problem. If the customer is a native English speaker, then even one instance of non-native English, anywhere in the paper, will tip off the instructor that this student did not write this paper. It will be that obvious. Therefore, after paying for the paper, the student will have to go through and edit carefully. But there's a good chance the student is pressed for time, as many clients are. So ordering papers written by ESL writers is not practical for most native English speaking students.

For ESL students, ESL writers can work pretty well, assuming the paper is not pure garbage. In fact, English that is too polished can make the instructor suspicious. I have often been asked throw in some non-native-looking English to make papers look more authentic. With an ESL writer, that would be happening without effort or intention, in most cases.

That's evident enough just in the forum posts of almost every ESL writer and company rep on this forum who complains about "discrimination" whenever anybody suggests that American and British customers have a right to know whether or not a writer offering services is ESL. If they can't even write a single informal 2-line forum post that isn't very obviously ESL to anybody who isn't ESL, the chance that they can write an academic paper that doesn't sound ESL is exactly ZERO percent.

It seems that most of the ESL writers/members on this forum are either owners of some companies operated by ESLs/EFLs or are employed by them. It is this point that spins the wheel of misrepresentation over and over. This is obviously not a good practice.

I think that the quality of an academic paper depends on much more than your grasp of the English language, crucial as this is. I'm sure that not all students in American, British, Australian and Canadian schools get excellent grades on their essays, despite an entire lifetime of English usage, both at home and at school. Older, more experienced writers do better than younger writers even when they write on a topic that they did not take in college. Sure, from an English writer's POV, there must be an enormous advantage to being born in a country whose primary language is English. My American nephew speaks tonnes better than most adults I know, and he's only eight.

I would take on academic work just to survive. I find the style of writing and the amount of research that goes into it excruciating. I think my psychological make-up has a lot to do with it. Logical, analytical types would probably fare better at academic writing than artistic types. I prefer copy-writing. My point is that language is just one factor among many that determine the quality of an academic paper. Problem is, if the language is terrible, no one looks at the other stuff.

As a writer whose native tongue is English and as a person who hates the standard world of work, I feel privileged to be able to do this to make a living. Of course, we can't all be fortunate enough, in these terms, to be born and bred in countries where English is the primary language. For those writers for whom this is the case, I strongly believe that, in addition to a desire/need to make money from academic writing, you must have near perfect writing skills. It is massively unfair to charge a student for work which has the potential to be marked down as the result of poor English. However, if students are willing to enter into an arrangement with an ESL writer, then that's their prerogative. many foreign students have requested that I do not write in perfect English because they do not want their marker to be suspicious, so I guess ESL writers could be ideal in such instances.

Another ESL writer is on the trail of this elusive niche market of ESL customers who can't write crap ESL copy themselves. It's never been much of a market, honestly, but if you yourself can't hack it in this admittedly-tough language, it's a great pie in the sky with which to fool yourself. Sure, you get some customers who say "make it sound ESL," but what they mean is, "make it sound like the ESL of someone who's been living in the US/UK for 12 years, and is going to pass." They don't want some squib from Central Europe who's never been to an English-speaking country before "entering into an arrangement" with them to produce awkward-sounding babble. Do you hear me, Kevin Harris? They can do that themselves for free. Now, isn't it about time for you to find some other hustle?

I would like to believe that if the non-native English writer was fed the English language from the crib, was educated in what amounts to the best international schools in his country, and has the ability to surround himself with English culture and learning material then yes, he could turn out to be an excellent academic writer later on. There is just one problem with this scenario, if the non-native English speaker were raised in such a manner, then that would mean that he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth. Finances are not going to be an issue for him and as such, he would not have any need to work as a 3rd rate academic writer in the industry. Hmmm... let me think about it a little more... Nope. I don't think it can happen. There is just too much of an educational system discrepancy between the ENL and non-ENL writer for the latter to be able to come up to par with the writing skills of the ENL academic writer.

I do not believe that being born in the U.S or the UK is the main qualification for being an excellent academic writer. I have known people from both countries, who are not necessarily academic writers, who can barely speak Uncle Sam's version of the Queen's English. They butcher both languages in terms of spelling and word usage all the time. Getting away with it mostly because, they were born in the country so everyone has to assume that they speak and write in the language properly, which isn't always the case.

If a foreign country based student attends an international school where the mode of teaching is either British or American English and they receive international lessons as well at the academic institution, expect that person to be almost native speaker in both spoken and written abilities. That person will also have an international mindset that will make him an excellent academic writer. Sometimes even better than those who are born in the aforementioned countries because they actually take the time to study the language properly whereas those born in the native English speaking countries tend to get lazy and not really care about how they speak or write as the teachers will always make allowances for their laziness.

That is why I do not hesitate to employ 3rd world writers who can prove that they have native English language abilities. While the majority of my staff are born and bred in the UK and the US, I believe in giving 3rd world writers with the proper and provable English abilities and relevant educational backgrounds a chance to compete with the native speaking writers. It delivers a healthy competition among my ranks of employees.

This is such a nice way to treat the situation. I find that what's worrisome is that some companies evade all non-native speakers. They do not account for the fact that some of these writers are even more cautious of the way that they construct their sentences because they seek to provide only the best for the company. Because of this, the writers tend to be perfectionists in their usage of the language. There will be some tugging, considering that certain idiosyncrasies cannot fully be comprehended by a non-native speaker. Regardless, giving them the mere opportunity is important.

I find it difficult to say that an ESL will ever be able to compare with an ENL writer. First of all, an ESL will always have English as his second language. There will always be differences, even if ever so slightly, in the manner that an ESL would write a paper in English as compared to an ENL. The sentence structures will always be different and the vocabulary used by the ESL will be proper, but obviously not at the level of an ENL. However, an ESL writer should be an excellent academic writer provided he has an almost ENL command of both the spoken and written English language. That means, he must be able to function in a totally English manner regardless of where he is located in the world. I believe that only when an ESL writer takes either the TOEFL or IELTS test can he be accurately rated for his English language skills. Only those tests have the proper criteria for testing and proving that a writer is at an ENL level.

As I've acknowledged previously, it's certainly possible for someone to learn English as a second language and, eventually, to become as much of an expert in English grammar and writing as a native speaker. However, just because it's possible doesn't mean that it happens very often or that more than a very small percentage of them ever reach that level of fluency. In the 20+ years that I've been writing for a living, I've met some ESL writers who are good, but I've never met a single ESL writer whose English writing is not easily-recognizable to me (and to any college professor) as having been written by someone whose native language is not English.