Should companies treat independent freelance writers as their "employees"?

Show us one website (out of a several hundreds or more) that treat their freelance writers as legal employees (ie. issue them W2 instead of W9). Why do you pretend not to know the legal difference between the employee and the independent contractor? Still, you always want to call them 'employees.' Why do you intentionally try to deceive and misinform the public?

Legitimate companies respect independent freelance writers they work with because it's an equal relationship (both parties benefit from the arrangement).

see thread title.

I call writers employees colloquially, because they work for these companies. it's a basic definition that makes sense to me, even if it may not pass in legalese. if you'd like, I can call them something else from now on. "independent freelance contractors" takes a long time to type.

re: company managers and writers having an equal relationship, I don't think so. just because there is a dual benefit does not make it an equal relationship.

editor75 = uneducated moron

from now on, I will only respond to posts which address the thread title. all mere insults, jabs, snipes, attempts at character assassination, etc. will be ignored, as they should be. shame on those who befoul this board with such infantile nonsense.

Shame on those who befoul this forum with moronic, nonsensical, impractical, unfeasible, illegal "suggestions" that they are too stupid, incompetent, and unprofessional to understand and implement themselves.

I guess nobody is looking forward to reading anything you post on this forum anyway.

I sure don't want to be treated as an employee by a company; for, being an employee is synonomous with being loyal to that company. I am not loyal, I am a freelancer and go where I want. Seriously editor75 if you're not happy with the pay you recieve, find another company, there are others that pay you know, and if you're not accepted then that speaks volumes.

thanks, Zander, but it's not really about me. it's about establishing minimum standards for the industry. I realize that freelancers are at-will employees, if they're considered employees at all, and that they value independence. what I think, though, is that some adjustment of terms is necessary industry-wide, to keep company owners from continuing to take an unfair cut of the profits, when they don't actually produce anything that is supplied to the customer. for those writers who are happy with your current situation, I understand that you want to justify your position. however, once again, I have to ask, couldn't it be better?

Try the sites where you set your own price. That means you're in control. It works pretty well according to me. The thing is that you get many variations of freelance writing sites. Some pay crap, some pay well and others, as I have mentioned, allow you to set your own price. It is all about choosing what you prefer instead of attempting to conform bad paying sites into something they are not and probably never will be.

Define "unfair cut." If I end up making more per page in net dollars than the owners, are they still being unfair?


Except for customer service, the website where the order was placed, a business agreement with various payment processors so the customers can pay for their orders, the keeping of records and maintenance of a payment system so writers will actually continue to take customers' orders, and a few other odds and ends. Other than that, you're right, though--they don't really do anything.


Everything could always be better, and most people would like to make more money regardless of how much they're making now. Sally Struthers figured this out decades ago. This doesn't mean that making things better by earning more money would necessarily be right, fair, or feasible.

I plan on opening a sandwich shop when I have enough cash to invest. What that means is I'm going to spend several years working a lot an saving my money very carefully, then eventually investing at least $100,000 and probably more in leasing (or possibly buying, if I can find other investors) a property, purchasing equipment, and funding the first several months of operation when almost no businesses turn a profit. I will have ongoing expenses that include utilities, the monthly rent, buying all of the things that go into my sandwiches, designing menus, maintaining the property, etc. For awhile I will have to work 12 hours a day at this shop myself to get it off the ground, but eventually I'll take a back seat and my employees--the ones who will end up doing the sandwich making, the cleaning, the customer service, etc--will begin doing most of the work. And I will still take home most of the money. I will treat my employees very fairly and pay them probably more than the industry average, but I will be the one taking home the bulk of the store's profits. I will also be the one running the risk of losing everything I'v invested if the store doesn't make a profit. That's capitalism.


Before, you were simply annoying because you're kind of an idiot. Now that you've rekindled this thread, you've become a downright nuisance.

this is why there needs to be a minimum standard. that way, companies could still deviate and compete, but not below the standard. setting your own price is also not the same as setting the price the company charges-- is it?


no, but I would suggest that if this happens for you very often, you're a special case.


now who's the idealist? there's a lot more actual overhead for food service than there is for term papers. good luck-- let me know when you open up, and I'll come get a sloppy Joe.

"At-will employment is a doctrine of American law that defines an employment relationship in which either party can break the relationship with no liability."

google.com/search?q=define%3A+at-will+employee

Freelance writers are not 'at-will employees.' They are independent contractors and that means they cannot be employees at the same time. All freelance writers have liability - if they accept a project and they break the relationship before they deliver the project then they will not get paid for the time they have already spent on doing the project. All freelance writers get paid for the RESULTS of their work only.

You, again, try to fool the public with your illegal and false statements.

editor75

Get rid of this ******* idiot already . . . .

Major-- sorry; once again, I don't speak legalese. I would dare to guess that it isn't illegal to talk about setting minimum industry standards, whatever the employees in the industry are called. I will try to be more clear in the future-- when I said "at-will," I meant that writers are not bound to any one employer, not that they could be fired for no reason at all, without protection (which also happens to be true).

WritersBeware-- it's fine to get mad, but I would suggest that you either translate that anger into something more constructive, or exercise some restraint. this is my last response to your insidious malice-- in the future, unless you have something substantial to add regarding the topic thread, you will simply be ignored.

This is true of almost all employment in all industries. It is what "at-will employment" means. If you're going to use a term that has a standard accepted definition in a way that doesn't have anything to do with that definition, you can't blame other people for thinking you're an idiot. It's an idiotic thing to do.


We've heard this before. We all wish it were true.

I obviously know what at-will employment is. if I'm using it in too colloquial a manner, excuse me for looking like an idiot-- although that seems a little harsh, doesn't it? ...especially if your opener is to explicitly state that I do know what it means. I don't think that you're an idiot for wanting to open a restaurant, even though 80% of them fail in the first year. I hope you succeed; I like sandwiches.

Exactly the same applies to essay writing websites; maybe that's why you refuse to invest $400 to start your own writing business and preach about how everything should work (in theory) instead.

yes, Major, but I don't want to start my own term paper mill. you're right-- it's all theoretical, for now.

So you are neither a writer, nor a company owner. And you're still trying to tell them what they should / should not do.

It's like a person who has never driven a car was trying to instruct an experienced driver how they should drive.

No wonder you are frustrated and nobody wants to listen to you. Become a writer or company owner FIRST and then come back with logical and legal ideas. Don't be a thoughtless tool because this forum is being frequented by educated and intelligent people (mostly).

right-- I'm coming out of left field, but I don't think that automatically makes me thoughtless. sometimes a fresh perspective is what's needed.

but facts and reality are still necessary elements

I never said they weren't.

You've implied it by continually ignoring them.

I ignore insults, supply ideas, and ask for facts that can help. as to the reality, that's been decried or defended by many-- looking for a better way starts with questioning it.

Right. And ignore facts that get in your way. Because you're an idiot.

ignoring facts that get in my way makes me more of an idealist than an idiot, but I suppose you could argue six of one, 1/2 dozen of another.

you've made your compromise; you have your dreams. I'm not here to insult you about any of that.

No, I wouldn't argue that at all. Gandhi was an idealist, but he was also very smart and understood the facts of his situation, which is why his solutions were ultimately so powerful. You don't pay attention to facts like the owners' expenses, the owners' risks, and the years of initial work the owner had to put into building their site(s), and so your idealism becomes unrealistic and unreasonable, unlike an idealist that actually pays attention to reality.


What compromise?


I suppose, but more importantly I have PLANS to help me achieve those dreams. I am realistic about my idealism, and so far that has';t held me back in the slightest--rather it has made me attain the things I set as goals for myself years ahead of the time I thought I would actually accomplish them.

I'm sure the pharaohs also had expenses, took risks, and worked hard, um, planning.

writers are the modern pyramid builders. whistle while you work!

Bulls*t. Without site owners having already laid the groundwork, writers have no platform. What good is a car without tires? Wake up.

Or a car without... the road.

I am sure you've been told this a zillion times - you are stark raving mad and whomever let you out of the loony bin is just as mad!

Writers = modern-day slaves
Company owners = despotic pharaohs

Breaking News: Marxism is DEAD; it died because it was a failed ideology.

Seriously - were you born brainless or did mummy 'accidentally' bash your brains?

Talk is cheap. Open your own company and implement your borderline illegal and totally stupid policies. What's holding you back?

All of those who are unhappy with their current conditions need to know that
1) there is a reason why high-paying sites don't want to hire them and won't hire them
2) they always have the option of walking out

Nobody is forcing you to work as writers and many of you have no right to even entertain the thought of working as writers.

For the last time:
1) opening and operating a company is not easy
2) company owners and managers actually DO WORK
3) companies carry overheads
4) any writer who works for a legitimate site makes more per page than does the site itself
5) your posts are a testament to your complete ignorance

Spare us your ignorant, outmoded, belligerent and ignorant views on the industry.

You are plain stupid but are too stupid to realise it
You are one of Nature's most unforgivable mistakes and need to rectify it by disappearing.
You are a shameless masochist; each and very one of your ideas has been smashed to smithereens and you have been repeatedly humiliated. Yet, you keep coming back for more.

You are as bothersome as a fly and should be given the full-fly swatting treatment.

I know; what good is the earth without Ra and the great Aten? these three owners here apparently feel that they are the very sun that shines on their lowly writers. how dare anyone assume that conditions could be better? bow down, idiots!

speaking of bothersome insects, these owners are reacting like hornets defending a kicked nest.

Listen, you ******* mongrel, I am not a site owner. I am just somebody who knows that you are an incoherent, ignorant ass.

WRT has summed it up nicely (YET again). You apparently couldn't comprehend her response because your response makes no sense and doesn't address anything on topic.

WRT has summed up nothing, except that she is narrow-minded, spiteful, rude, and on some sort of outdated witch-hunt for communists. I have never mentioned Marxism or any other ideology; I am here to talk about improving conditions for writers.

And writers have told you that, because they make more than their counterparts and take a greater proportion of each order they complete than do the owners, they do not feel a need or even a right to improve their conditions at the expense of these owners. Making it so the owners only make as much money as the writers is not the same as a fair deal.

one writer, you, has told me that, and I believe that you're the exception rather than the rule. I believe that in most cases, owners take a bigger cut of the order than the writer gets.

editor75

you are not going to ever quit this topic, are you?

which hourly rate would make you happy?

and plz include into this figure the compensation for sick leave days, healthcare expenses, retirement planning, etc

as others have said before, and I now realize, an hourly rate wouldn't work in this industry. it would be too complicated to figure out a standard page rate, because of the relative complexity of different orders. therefore, CPP increases should be based on a formula that reduces the % taken by the company from the customer, reduces the amt spent by the company on advertising, and proportionately redistributes this to:

increase the CPP
create a pool for a limited number of paid sick days ($100/day or so)
expand or create incentives/rewards programs

these are little things. I'm not talking about giving anyone the moon and stars. the way the owners on this board have reacted, you'd think I was telling them to sacrifice their children.

i can imagine a school teacher saying "i can't provide my hourly rate as there are always new kids to teach"

hourly rates work perfectly, in all industries, no matter if they are stipulated in a contract or you keep them in mind when deciding whether to take a project/order/paper/work/whatever


and who is supposed to calculate this formula? you don't bother to calculate your own hourly rate, but expect someone else to take care of yourself