Should companies treat independent freelance writers as their "employees"?

This has gone far enough.
1) I am an active writer and the money I earn from writing goes towards bonuses to our writers
2) our writers earn a minimum of $9 per page - minimum. Average is $15
3) our writers are never fined
4) yes, when writers repeatedly have hospital emergencies one hour before a paper is due, they are fired. We are not fools. Once, ok. Twice in a row - no bloody way is that remotely believable.

5) yes when writers claim that they were hit by a hurricane when there was no hurricane and use that as an excuse for non-delivery, we fire them

6) if a writer plagiarises once, we fire them

Where reliable writers are concerned,
1) rather than have them waste theur valuable time on revisions, we do the revisions in their stead - especially if they are bogged down with work

2) when writers ask for an extension and provide legitimate reasons, we give them the extension
3) when writers are genuinely ill but have been requested by a customer, we do the work and the writer gets the pay
4) we give our top writers a 10% bonus on their season's earnings every season
5) we do not fine our writers
6) we carry the cost of transfer, rather than pass it onto the writers
7) customers who are rude or abusive towards our writers are blacklisted

We more than pay our dues and are more than fair and supportive. But we won't put up with mediocrity, lies or bs. No 'the dog ate my homework' will pass muster with us.

We respect our writers and enjoy excellent relations with all our active ones.

We have fired and blacklisted a few for the reasons mentioned above but, guess what? Even though their work was nothing other thsn unusable trash, necessitating our rewriting it from scratch - we paid them their dues in full.

So, go to hell.

You are a clueless moron who knows nothing about thud industry.

Mods - either this creature establishes his assertions against us or it will go the way of others.

Don't ever ever assume you can libel any who run a clean operation, moron.

Go get exploited at essay writers or academia research. That is all you are good for. No legitimate company will hire a kook like you.

What is your industry experience?
Where do you work?

By the way, FU, you libellous scamming liar.

Mods - this has gone far enough. This creature is a waste of forum space and is engaging in libel.

Not only are you accusing me of being a thief but all company owners of being thieves. Guess we all know who the thieving liar is. What you write here speaks to your character.

How about taking a stand? Since all company owners are thieves, get out of the industry. Is it that you are unemployable?

You will, very soon, become unemployable in this industry.

Most company owners - the legits - don't want to be associated with people like you or have you on their books.

Stick with essaywriters.net and academia-research.com. They would mind having a moron like you around. At $3-6 per page, you are worth keeping around. All the more so since their hiring standards are suspect.

Amons-- if WRT wants to waste time and money tracking me down for calling them names on the internet, I'm glad to be causing trouble, but concerned about where WRT is getting that time and money. I'm trying to get employees treated better here, not worse.

it would be great if writers could make $100/page, but I don't think we can judge the median of writers, who are being encouraged into situations of P/T treatment working F/T hours, by manufacturing these extremes. it was my mistake, too-- naturally, no one is really going to get a company car. but it starts with little things-- a stratified system of bonuses, for example. the bottom line is that the people who carry these companies on their shoulders deserve better treatment.

Concerned about where I am getting the money?! Is that a joke or the voice of envy? You don't know anything about me, my business and are making a mistake in assuming that this is the only business I am involved in. Moron.

Better treatment? Fair pay? Bonuses? Unfortunately, you'll never experience that as the legits won't hire you.

All your 'demands' are standard practice amongst the legits.

I agree you are clueless about this industry. Totally clueless. Why do you even post here?

The idea of freelance writing work is: YOU WORK ONLY WHEN YOU WANT TO. It takes you 40 hours to write 1 page? That's fine - you set your own pace, nobody will force you to write faster (as long as you meet the established deadline as you promised when you took the order).


Not only that. Imagine a writer decides to make money on nothing and claims his back got hurt from sitting on a crooked chair while writing a 2-page essay for your customer. Guess who would have to pay for worker's comp and extra insurance costs?

Not to mention the fact the writer got his back hurt while playing volleyball on the beach while you 'thought' he was writing 'full-time' for you AND you have no way to control if the chair is even or not.

I never thought of that, Major. Imagine our being hit by workplace injury lawsuits :)

I've got to learn how to put people in their place without engaging in extended back and forths. You managed that in one post :(

It's my personal opinion, but I do not think it's a good idea for company owners to give bonuses (or fines - unless the project was chargebacked due to the writer's direct fault) --> unless they agree to treat their writers as employees. Independent contractor should not receive any bonuses or fines (or any other 'perks' like vacation or insurance).

Regarding the concept of "overtime" - it absolutely makes no sense in this industry. The word 'overime' relates to the word "TIME;" since writers are paid on per PAGE or per PROJECT basis the concept of 'overtime' is void of logic.

Editor: You clearly don't understand the point of a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

My point, which you've apparently conceded, is that just because someone only pays a CPP and doesn't give benefits doesn't mean that they're being exploitative. I don't know WRT's business practices firsthand, but if they match the principles he states, they are more than fair. If $10 per page is the MINIMUM once you've been established, assuming the previous assumptions, that's $96,000. If you're up to $20, then you can get up to $192,000 if you're being efficient.

No one has any objection to seeing employees at many places doing better, but you're asking for highly impractical things.

Amons-- averaging 40 pages a day seems somewhat impractical as well-- I'm not saying it's impossible, but what company or writer can sustain that pace all year? what I'm saying is that many writers are already writing enough pages a day to qualify as F/T employees, but the system is set up so that they never get any of the benefits F/T employees get in other industries. there's no excuse for it, and it is exploitative.

a lot of new ideas are impractical at first, but then they get honed down and made workable. a lot of new ideas are also perceived as threats. I don't know if it may just be the tendency of these boards, or certain members, to amplify conflict, instead of finding common ground. I'm sorry to have been a part of it, and I am resolved not to be drawn off track again. if you want to just tell me what I "clearly don't understand" and defend the status quo, that's fine-- but doesn't it make more sense, if my ideas are so bad, for you to try to show us some better ones?

Get it through your 2-foot-thick skull that freelance contractors-in ANY industry-are not eligible for benefits.

great, then there should be a union of freelance contractors to improve conditions, get equal treatment, and at least have an intelligent discussion about increased benefits. instead, we have the open mockery of the company owners who seem to sit on these boards almost exclusively.

these bull-headed vampire scum-lords respond to the light of truth w/
elitism
aggressive denial
paranoid delusions
childish insults
a half-ashamed sneer directed at their own workers
sudden cases of moth-pockets
etc. etc.

writers have the power to organize and stop these thieves from continuing to loot the base of the pyramid, which, as mentioned, was built by the writers, not the managers and owners. after a collective is formed, with demands, then the next step is to organize. with organization comes the power to withhold labor.

they're taking the lion's share. they don't deserve it. they didn't write any of it. their writers did. someone apparently needs to show them that.

How many pages a day 'qualifies' a writer as a 'full-time employee'? It's like asking: "How many miles a runner needs to run to call himself a professional runner?" How many pages a writer can research and write exclusively depends on his/her personal abilities and on the specific subject.

""the system is set up""

No, the MARKET works this way. Both the customer and the writer need to know in advance the total cost and the total amount to be paid for the work. The customer pays in advance. Do you imagine a situation when a project is assigned to an 'employee' who happens to write 1 page a day (and still claims he/she's been working on 1 page for 8 hours a day)? Then what, do you go back to the customer and say 'Unfortunately your writer is pretty slow, but since we have to pay him by an hour you must be prepared to pay 800% more than you've originally planned. Here is a payment link to pay.'

Not to mention the fact it is impossible to control someone in the virtual world. Employer's right is to control their 'employees.' You want to take away that right too? :)


Do you want to make contract freelance writers employees without telling them they would be making 30% less money per page they are making now (the 20% would have to be paid in extra taxes and 10% in extra administrative fees), that 70% of them would have to go on a dole because they are not good/fast enough to work as 'employees,' and that their freedom of work would become an utopia?(but hey, they would get 1-week free vacations)

You are a steaming pile of festering garbage who paints ALL companies and company owners with the same brush. If you were an intelligent, qualified writer in the English language, you would have been hired by legitimate companies. Alas, you're an incredibly ignorant tool, so your knowledge of the industry is limited to your interactions with FRAUDULENT employers.

Yes, that's what freelancers DO. Sometimes they work more than they expected.

Again, let's say they work full time, get no benefits, but get, let's say, $65,000 a year, working from home, able to set their own schedule, can work with the TV on... That's not bad. Many writers here are okay with that.

The problem comes when, working full time, they're getting, say, $3,000 or what not.

If you think that it's feasible for companies to provide health insurance, etc., put your money where your mouth is. Make us a feasibility report that shows that, with reasonable CPPs charged by the company and paid to the writer, they can afford even one or two of your benefits AND retain profitability in the marketplace.

Major-- please don't get hung up on my mention of overtime. I only said "overtime" because I have no idea what else to call it. it would not be measured in time, though-- it would be measured in pages, I guess. also, I am not suggesting dues or fees, at this point-- just an honest agreement to be able to stop work on a massive scale, if treatment from a certain company in the industry does not meet set standards.

WritersBeware-- your name is very accurate. stop and think for a minute. slow down; calm down. now then: I don't differentiate between employers-- you are correct; I think that they are all frauds, because they do not write. they sell, and steal from their writers, who do all the work, and then they whine that they're too poor to help with even the most basic benefits for the people who put bread on their table.

Amons-- of course, essay companies are mostly run by frauds, so you can't just walk in and demand to see their books. half of the time, you can't even find the place. in most cases in which you can, they are dumb as rocks, and can't do books, so they outsource. when you finally find out, you'll know as well as I do that they are truly taking the lion's share of the profit-- let's call that over 50%, for doing zero work. so, adjust that %, and we have a good start for a bonus program, or paid sick days-- the tip of the iceberg. now, add to that reduced %, a royalties feedback program-- there's more money. keep in mind-- word of mouth advertising is priceless, and it occurs in the form of preferred writers, who equal customer loyalty and repeat business for companies. chisel a bit off advertising for that, then. this is just the start.

Nonsense. Each essay has specific instructions which are completely custom and cannot be 'averaged.' That's why not all projects are taken, even if they are paid.

You say it doesn't matter for a writer if s/he is told to write a creative essay about 'Your favorite movie' VS a dissertation about 'Role of Notch Signaling in T Cell Polarization in Allo-Graft Rejection'? If you were hired by a company as an 'employee' - which project would you hope to be assigned? In your Utopian world a 'writer-employee' would have to be fired on the same day s/he was hired because nobody is able to write about something they have no idea about (and that is a perfect excuse to fire someone).


By that definition, all brokers, affiliates, salespeople, and government workers are also parasites because they do not produce anything.

Your arguments are very weak and - ironically - what you propose would actually make writers that you pretend to 'defend' much more miserable and financially disabled than where they are now.

Editor: This has already been part of the industry. Rush jobs get paid more at any reputable company (not AR or EW, obviously). So do highly difficult jobs.

Editor75's attempts to dumb-down this forum must stop.

Stu4, as always, your posts are right on topic and extremely intelligent ...

Editor(echoes of centralpark/bat) - stop embarrassing yourself.

Mods - are completely uninformed, libellous, ignorant and stupid posters allowed to waste so much forum space?

This person knows zilch about the industry.

no; I don't say this. some sort of formula could be reached between page-count and difficulty.


I would like to take this slightly out of context, and agree.


I don't see how; it doesn't cost anything to get together and talk about solutions.


a little bit, usually; sometimes not. it should be a lot more, considering the cost spike seen by the customer for rush work.

I hear a lot of "nonsense" and "ridiculous," and I hear a lot of "X can't be true, and Y can't work." I am not sure why everyone is being so negative. in any case, if you think that something sucks, you should try to do it better. it's so much better than just complaining.

Your proposals are utterly unrealistic, ignorant, and in direct opposition to America labor law. There is no "solution" to be had. If you were capable of such grandiose change, you would be undertaking it through your OWN COMPANY instead of barking complete nonsense at others in a public forum.

I am just one person; that is why I am here.

It appears only you think something sucks, so discussing it is pointless.

Nobody's being negative at all. There's one person who obviously knows nothing about this industry or about the most basic elements distinguishing freelance work from employment spouting endless nonsensical "advice" to people who are actually working in this industry. No matter how many people try to explain that your ideas are ridiculous, you remain unconvinced and continue to believe that it's everyone else who's mistaken and not you. Most of us are just not interested in any kind of work that requires the type of obligations that go along with fulltime employment. Chances are almost everybody here has more experience than you do in both realms and can compare the relative advantages and disadvantages of each from practical experience more than you can.

I'd love for my essay companies to pay for my health insurance, but I understand that's not an option with freelance work of any kind. Your position makes as much sense as trying to convince a forum populated by fulltime employees that they should lobby for the right to work whatever days and hours they want with no questions asked by their employers. By all means, preach on and continue bombarding this forum with your nonsense, just don't be offended that nobody here takes you seriously.

FreelanceWriter-- a union of freelancers that can work cross-industry to negotiate and enforce minimum standards re: writer treatment is possible; please don't give up on the idea just because it seems unrealistic, or because I get some terms wrong. I am only human, but I think I have a good basic idea; I might make mistakes in my interpretation, but I think that the basic idea of a union of freelancers can benefit you and the majority of other writers who make up the base and foundation of essay writing companies.

You don't have a "good basic idea" at all and it's not about "terminology"; you have demonstrated that you genuinely know absolutely nothing about employment law or the industry you're presuming to offer suggestions about reforming. There are already various freelancers' unions for people who want to join them and they're not specific to this industry. You're the only one who thinks there's even a need for this discussion. Those of us who are already actually working in this industry like our freelancing arrangement and don't consider ourselves exploited at all; we need the companies as much as they need us. If you had any common sense, you'd realize that the fact that all of us freelancers (and not company reps) are the ones telling you that your idea is ridiculous means that it probably is and not that we're all "brainwashed" or too "unimaginative" to appreciate your fantastic ideas.

Just out of curiosity, what do you actually do for a living and how much of your annual income comes from "editing" anything?

Editor: For God's sakes, just try something realistic. WRT was talking about getting a certification program on to protect good writers and exclude scammers. Why not get into that/

Someone never used that usernane again after I mentioned their `favourite word' and nickname.

Whose services, in your esteemed opinion, should we `avail' ouselves of?

Yes - there is a link.

See here's the thing, some of us here do get bonuses for our work and are paid handsomely by our employers and direct clients. Some of us do get treated quite well by our employers and some of us are well-protected against the hazards of this industry (crazy clients and freeloaders). Those of us who are among this group don't need a "union of freelancers." We're valued for what we can bring to the table and that value equates to fair treatment. The low positive response that your idea is getting is not because it's unrealistic (although it is unrealistic), but because it's irrelevant.

I disagree. It's like saying that, since sous chefs in prestigious restaurants in New York are doing well for themselves, people at McDonald's don't need a union. There ARE a lot of exploited workers in the industry, and it WOULD be good if someone did the hard work (which, frankly, editor doesn't seem to be willing to do - but I hope he proves me wrong) to bring them together, protect them, raise their CPPs and improve their treatment. Yes, some people are doing well enough for themselves without it.

The problem is that editor graduated from that entirely reasonable point to silliness like demanding overtime or health insurance. I take his claim that he was offering examples of potential improvements at face value, however. And I'd point out: If companies pay their workers $3 a page, then charge $20 a page... they can amply afford, if they're not going to raise their exploitative rates, to provide some other elementary protections for their freelancers.

Like I said, some of us here do get bonuses for our work and are paid handsomely by our employers and direct clients. Some of us do get treated quite well by our employers and some of us are well-protected against the hazards of this industry (crazy clients and freeloaders).

If you want to start a union of freelancers composed of people with substandard writing ability and embark on a quest to raise the value and respect that you command in this industry, I won't stand in your way. I'd even wish you the best of luck.

Good luck. ^_________^

I think that there's plenty of room between established, cream-of-the-crop writers and "substandard writing ability". Plenty of people just getting started, or ESL writers with plenty of skill, or just Third World writers in general, can be taken in by scamming or exploitative companies.

I support Editor's idea in practice, but at this point, he just hasn't offered enough practical or concrete to really comment.

right-- and if companies pay their workers $10 a page, then charge $30 a page... it should be the same story.

it's not just some companies that are exploiting their writers-- it's a matter of degree. it's not a "good vs. bad companies" issue. all companies take the lion's share, while taking their writers for granted; the fact that some do it less explicitly than others is no excuse.

some of you appear comfortable, but will only talk about money. what about sick days? what about other incentives and benefits? I'm not going to say, "it's good enough." it can be better.

No, that DOESN'T follow.

If a company pays their writers enough, then they've satisfied one condition not to be exploitative.

Maybe our hypothetical $10-to-writers/$30-to-clients company is exploitative, but it might not be. If the cumulative cost of web hosting, management, promotion, quality control, dealing with some customers who don't pay, hiring, etc. is high enough, the company might need to charge $30 per page just to stay in business. I personally split proceeds 50/50 or more with my freelancers, with a minimum of $10/pg for researched papers or $7.50 for unresearched for both me and my freelancers, but that's only because I am a very small business. If I had enough work for myself and, say, three freelancers full-time, I'd probably only take 10% off the top. Anyone else willing to describe their split with their freelancers?


This is stupid and shows you have NO experience with business.

Doing promotion COSTS. I've taken out ads with small companies and spent maybe $50 on it in total. That came out of my own pocket. And I'm not highly ranked on Google, doing the promotional work to get that done, doing targeted e-mail promotion, etc. I'm mostly using word of mouth and free classifieds.

If a company was big enough that it needed full-time web support staff, quality control, promotion, advertisement, accounts receivable/payable, accounting, paying taxes and incorporation fees...

What you're asking is for a freelance writer who heads the company to do, FOR FREE, all the advertisement, promotion and business management while you reap the money, benefits and clients. Sorry. Either everyone would do that equally, divvying it up (and even then, that means you need someone with EXPERTISE and need to have people's money partially be siphoned into subsidizing the business), or one to a few people handle all that.

Trust me, I'm about as pro-worker as you can get. If you can't get ME on your side, you have a big problem.


And what we keep telling you, which isn't penetrating your thick skull, is that MANY OF THESE THINGS ARE IMPOSSIBLE OR DEEPLY IMPRACTICAL. And many of us DON'T WANT THOSE THINGS.

Sick days? You take those off. You don't take clients that day, and transfer existing clients somewhere else. If you don't have any clients, you don't even need to call in! And unlike regular jobs, you can take them "part" off. You can nap, then work for an hour, then nap.

Other benefits? It depends. Overtime can't be a benefit because there's no such thing as "overtime" without time payment. But benefits and rewards for productivity is fine and is common among reputable companies. And "overtime" is simulated by companies charging more for rush jobs.

Health insurance is impractical. So is paid vacation.

Amons-- you'd like to treat your writers like they are the base and source of revenue in your organization, but... they don't have any power.

too bad about those moths in your pockets. I hope someday you decide to start living the dream, and give your writers that 90% you "wished you could" give them.

no wonder you consider my ideas completely unfeasible.


no need for the caps-- we all know that the "us" refers to company owners, and as such, you're not supposed to want these things. you're too poor, remember?

Editor: It's really great how you assume, off hand, that my freelancers must be miserable, Third World sweatshop workers. Here's a hint: They make plenty of money and are deeply satisfied.

They have PLENTY of power, Editor! They could take an assignment and not turn it in, forcing me to rush and hurting my reputation. They could demand a certain CPP. They could lambaste me in public and hurt my business. I am a small business and don't know many good freelancers. I can't afford to alienate anyone I come across.

Also, you have NO IDEA how my business works. Let me be totally clear. I handle, myself, 99% of my business. I use freelancers when the work gets too backed up. My freelancers ARE NOT THE BASE OF MY BUSINESS. I am. Once again, you have put your foot into your mouth.

For Christ's sakes, I am a SOCIALIST and I think you are spouting idiotic drivel. Your last ally on this board has been lost. I am telling you that

a) Neither my business nor any other in the industry I am aware of can actually AFFORD to give their writers a good CPP AND any of the benefits you are listing

b) We CANNOT legally give those benefits without making those freelancers into employees, which involves changing their tax status, our tax status, keeping far more extensive of records, etc.

c) Legitimate essay writers DO NOT WANT your benefits because they would require being an employee which would mean they couldn't work their own hours, choose their own assignments, etc. but would have to be micro-managed and monitored

One of my family members is a French translator. Guess what? She doesn't have benefits, or health insurance, or overtime either. Neither do most freelance writers. It's the nature of the entire industry, not just the essay writing part of it. Grow up and learn some basic facts about the industry you are pretending to be part of.

I support an effort to "unionize" (not formally, but in practice) medium-level workers just getting started in the industry, both talented ESL writers and starting English writers, to protect them from exploitative CPPs and dishonest company policies. But what every single person here, freelancer and business manager alike, has been telling you, is that demanding benefits like you're asking IS NON-NEGOTIABLY OFF THE TABLE. You don't understand what actual unions do, do you? You're an armchair activist. Real unions exercise the art of the possible. They struggle for a $.25 to $2 raise, or a 5 hour reduction. When the people on the other side of the table, your EMPLOYERS without whom YOU WOULD NOT HAVE A JOB, tell you that certain things just cannot be done for legal, financial and market reasons, you BACK OFF and focus on gains you can win.

Even worse, even if your proposals were possible, they would effectively SHUT DOWN any of your workers who intended to go into business for themselves! Only large businesses could even possibly afford to offer the benefits you're suggesting. In the past, you were saying that those were only possible benefits. Back off - you left yourself room to do so.

you exercise the art of nay-saying.

what I am suggesting is not unfeasible, but does constitute a change in the status quo that is especially threatening to essay company owners. these owners rule the roost, so to speak, in a top-heavy structure of power and profiteering.

the power I am talking about is not the power of writers to refuse assignments or ask for higher CPP. it is the power to stop work on a massive, organized scale, in order to get the company to comply to demands (not consider requests). as it is, you choose what requests you deign to honor from your serfs, while claiming to be a socialist.

Yes, you are asking for union power. That doesn't mean that your claim that writers are powerless is TRUE. I proved it wrong, you offered an irrelevant corrective.

Okay, I've asked you to put your money where your mouth is before. Let's see it. Construct a feasibility report. Show us how many papers at what CPP it would take to provide a living wage for two people, assuming a manager and a writer, or whatever other business size you want to assume, while also providing whatever other benefits you're assuming. If you can construct a REMOTELY plausible business model with basic research, I will apologize and will encourage others to do the same. If you can't, then I expect you to apologize to everyone you've accused of exploitation.

Your claim that it's threatening to essay writer owners is also true, but misleading. OTHER ESSAY WRITERS HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU THAT YOU ARE WRONG AND THEY DON'T WANT WHAT YOU OFFER. Christ, do you LISTEN? Read? Pay attention?

here's what I know: the owner takes home a couple of hundred grand, and the writer takes home maybe thirty or forty. the whole system needs flipped on its head.

essay writers have been telling me that they're content, which is not the same thing as being satisfied.

I don't take home a couple of hundred grand. I take home thirty or forty.

Have any specific, non-scam companies where this is the case? Any actual financials? Or is this just a made up statistic?

Even if you did, that STILL wouldn't be the sign of a scam. How many of those writers are working full time? Almost none. How much more money would you need to provide those writers to come into the office? Moms, for example, might be willing to make $30,000 less a year to be able to actually raise their kids. Did the people at the top start there, or did they work their way up by working for years? How much money could those people at the top make if they were in a comparable job within their professional echelon? Etc. But from what I've seen talking to WRT, this assessment is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. You're describing frauds, not actual companies.

Of course, this failure to put your money where your mouth is proves my point. You have NO IDEA whether or not benefits could be feasible. You seem to understand, implicitly, that they're NOT. You're a spoiled kid sitting outside the window asking for a hundred pounds of candy.

Read a friggin theasaurus. And no, they have NOT been telling you they're content. The ones HERE have been telling you they are HAPPY. Ecstatic. I am making great money and working for myself. I am my own boss.