Should companies treat independent freelance writers as their "employees"?

tell me more.


aside from being a semantic minefield, this simply isn't true.


you seem to be speaking for a lot of people here.

Editor75, crawl back under your Indian rock and shut up. You are an unconscionable idiot.


No problem. I relish taunting.

WRT, please send me all of your info. I will combine it with mine and create a new thread to ensure that this fu**-n moron NEVER defrauds a single customer.

I speak for the pros. You do not count as one.

You don't know how things can get ugly?!

Major is spouting meaningless semantics?

'avail' yourself of a psychatrist's services.

WB - no problem

Guys, I've heard IRS is looking into online writing companies because they don't like the fact so many independent contractors are in this market. They want all of them to be classified as employees. After reading Editor75 statements it looks to me he is an IRS agent or their lawyer.

It's not to protect writers, but to make sure that the IRS have a better control over them for tax purposes.

(And I'm serious.)

Happy New Year everyone.

No - it is looking into independant contractirs who do not declare their income.

That clearly explains Editor75's posts and agenda.

Editor is from India
Editor knows noting of the law
What has the fact that some companies do not pay their taxes have anything to do with editor's demands?
The IRS is not stupid - editor is

Editor - go take an after dark walk in centralpark - I hear it's freezing and not very safe :)

obviously... but for all that relish, you're not very good at it.


no, and no.


have fun in your new thread.

Major - could you pls explain the IRS situation?

Editor75 - yes, we know who you are working with

What 'rogerb' wrote makes sense to me, especially after reading Editor75's posts again keeping rogerb's comments in mind. You answered:


I guess the IRS prefers to have one company that works with 500 writers (that they wish to name 'employees') accountable for paying taxes of those 500 writers rather than to individually hunt for 500 contractors to make sure they pay their own taxes as independent contractors (and not write off their legitimate expenses, like their own computers, offices, insurance, sub-contractors etc.).

I know it makes absolutely no sense and is in fact impossible to treat writers as employees in this virtual industry, but if you look how Editor75 has been trying to push his ridiculous ideas it may be clear what his agenda is.

break out the tinfoil hats. once again, we're getting nowhere.

You are about to sink like a rock, Batul.

I see.
Our general consul/partner/lawyer insists that since we have so many American writers and customers, we have to set up in the States as well and declare all monies generated from and paid to individuals in the States :(

FreelanceWriter asked this question at least twice and was ignored.

Now it makes sense to conclude "We" = "the IRS."


Not only that, you'd also have to withhold taxes from all writers living around the world. That means, instead of paying them, let's say $13 per page you could only afford to pay them $7-$8 per page to cover the additional and unfair taxes and administrative fees. That also means you would only be able to work with ESL writers.

I guess it's a win-win situation for fraudulent companies and unqualified writers.

But the good news is this is not going to happen, in most cases at least.

Ok - now I can breathe easy :)
He's from ilinois so, of course, partial to US. But it makes sense - money generated within the US has to be declared within the US.

Major - read centralpark on the same topic ...

As for ESL writers - we tried and, almost two years later, only 6 worked out - real pros, excellent English and wonderful writing skills. BUT 6 were all we could come up with.

Want I can't understand is that as soon as we reject one (no choice) , we find ourselves on the receiving end of abusive emails.

A member here sent in her application. She did not upload the requisite docs (proof of nationality and academic degree). Multiple reminders and nothing ... application was, naturally, rejected and the response has to be read to be believed :) apparently , we rejected her because of our racism and laziness :) she advised me to jump in a lake and called the wrath of the Heavens doen upon me :)

I have to remind you that this isn't "guess who I am" (as fun and funny as this game is).

this is "should companies treat independent freelance writers as their employees?"

and "can we establish a set group of minimum standards for writer treatment which can be installed industry-wide?"

"we" is anyone who has anything constructive to add.

Not really; if they successfully (and fraudulently) classify the whole online writing industry in a way that they make companies to treat their virtual writers as 'employees' then no legitimate companies are safe.

But, again, no writer would be safe either and those writers who take orders on a sporadic basis today (I guess there are at least 60% of them) would have to try their luck in McDonald's instead.

But that would be tantamount to overturning the whole at-will and independent service contractor concept - not to mention the relevant laws.

Basically, I truly believe it tine that the legits banded together. We need to establish an officially recognized industry regulatory board, headed by the industry's founders. Added, to they, we really need to work towards the elimination of the scsmmers and wannabes.

Preempt external intervention, etc.

Question for the Americans here: is your government/Obama veering towards socialism?!

WHY? You don't ever bother making the argument! For the record: Is $3 CPP different from $6 different from $12? You've conceded that someone making $100 CPP is not exploited. What CPP or income is high enough for you to not think there's exploitation? And do you think that freelancers in other fields are exploited just because they don't have health insurance? And what about people working in countries where health insurance is provided? For God's sakes, your ideas are so mind-numbingly simplistic...

As regards capitalism and socialism: Capitalism is also a desperately failed economic system, responsible for ecological destruction, imperialism, war and omnicidal threats. I think it's transparently obvious that we need to seek out new forms, neither Stalinist/Leninist forms nor capitalist forms. Doesn't seem terribly relevant, though...

"companies that have minimum CPPs, don't charge fines, and have a very fair split."

I said that these companies were myths, because there is no such thing as a fair split in this industry. the writers are not organized, and have no power to dictate terms. when the company mangers are the ones setting the policy and dictating terms, there is no such thing as a fair split.

Open your own company and implement your asinine ideas or shut the **** up, Batul.

And I'm telling you that claim requires EVIDENCE. Evidence which you have spent four pages of thread refusing to provide.

You have to prove, on the one hand, that what administrators and companies do doesn't require 50% off the top for overhead. You haven't bothered, so you're done, go away.

You have to prove, on the other, that writers are actually exploited and actually don't have power. You haven't bothered, writers here tell you otherwise, go away.

Each and every writer has the power to dictate his/her own terms by writing either for him/herself and/or for a company.

By taking private projects writers get 100% of the paid amount. Maybe companies should get organized and claim a % from their earnings? Apparently freelance writers working independently are taking the companies' business (so they should pay a % of the work they do independently).

What about being independent? If you are organized you are no longer independent. And freelance writers WANT to be independent; if they didn't they would've gotten a 9-5 job and be a slave of their bosses.

I have more options than these. it's great, though-- now I'm in a shouting match with a bunch of company owners. their advice? open a company!


I don't have to prove anything. if you have access to these numbers, as a company owner, you're in a much better position than I am to audit your books. if you want my services as an accountant, that does come with a charge. I have already made several suggestions for cost-cutting, all of which you have apparently overlooked.

as for writers being exploited and not having power, I don't have to prove that. anyone with eyes, a pulse, and an IQ over 90, can take one look at this industry and see that the writers are powerless to dictate policy. they are also increasingly scattered all over the world, and as such, are even more isolated. the cherry on the sundae is that they are derided and ridiculed, on these boards, by their employers.


I agree, but the shame of it is that they turned their back on this slave situation in the office world, and entered a parallel situation of fealty in the world of freelance writing.

being organized doesn't mean losing your status as an independent contractor, able to set your own hours, work at your own pace, not punch a time-clock, etc. it just means getting more powerful, so that you can make demands of management, and not just have them smirk and say, "I can't afford it."

WritersBeware: I hope you work out your issues with control and aggression. once again, this isn't "guess who I am." this is "should companies treat independent freelance writers as their employees?"

I don't know who you are, but your tone reminds me a little bit of my old gym teacher, Mr. Soufriere. that doesn't mean that I'm going to make a post accusing you of being him, though. it wouldn't make sense, and it would just make me look unbalanced.

speaking of unbalanced, when are writers going to realize that they are actually the ones holding the cards? if these companies don't have productive writers, everything stops.

"We" are staying here. "You" are leaving.

you're right: I'm leaving. I have a New Year's Eve party to attend. don't wait up!

Yeah, it's also known as "Moron-Fest 2010." You're the guest of honor. SPEECH, SPEECH, SPEECH!

Yes - just the right time in a certain Asian country :)

I've been working as an independent freelance writer for the last several years. I have both individual clients and accounts with a few companies.

Editor75 works hard to show all the carrots of some sort of "unionization/organization" of the online writing industry but he forgets about the sticks. In real life carrots come with sticks. Apparently, in his delusional world he refuses to recognize this simple truth.

Mind that if you centralize how much you can or will write for (I assume there would be a minimum of $X per page or project enforced by someone - no idea who would decide on the level of difficulty or complexity which are not equivalent to page output), you would no longer be able to write what you like or for much you like, and when you like because a minimum pay would need to come with minimum output requirements.

In addition, belonging to some sort of union is not free. You have to pay union fees - I know a person who works for one, so I know it for a fact. They have their own rules and regulations you have to abide by, on top of general laws for everyone. Also, structuring is a means to better control workers time, productivity, etc. You become a small part of a huge machine you cannot get away from in a sense.

This is what happened with condominium associations in the US. They were meant as an entity to protect people and their investment in the co-ops. In reality, at this time there is no one who regulates such associations. They defraud many people who live in co-ops; they create their own laws, which aren't even checked by anybody (it takes about 2-3 people to force through whatever they like). If you as a resident don't agree with their bylaws, they can basically force you out of your home and sue you for your own money.

Being an independent individual with all the benefits it offers, I would never even consider joining such a union. It only would limit the little freedom I have left.

Maybe Editor75 wants to set up writers' union to collect union fees. That sounds like a good business opportunity and free money for a promise of illusive protection.

Beatrice

Beatrice: I don't think Editor was ever proposing a literal, legal union, but more like a professional association.

Then, as a writer (and an occasional translator), I'm even more sure he is wasting our time and resources. There are literally hundreds of professional translators associations which - besides taking membership fees and paid meetings - do absolutely nothing. I don't see how writers associations would be any different.

Actually, my family member in the translation industry finds her ATA membership to be very useful. She wouldn't have gotten on the Trados bandwagon as early as she did without it, for example.

Also, I think Editor is describing an organization with no fees. If he does ask for fees, I would balk even more at unrealistic demands that would waste the time of the members.

1. as I repeatedly stated, I'm not looking for dues. I'm not even suggesting unionization yet, in the way people think of that word. I'm saying that collectively, writers need to start to talk about establishing some minimum standards, which can be instituted industry-wide. they also need to have more power to collectively bargain with owners.

2. comparing unions and condo associations is a real stretch. this forum is more like a condo association than the entity I'm suggesting, which, like Amons points out, isn't really a union as much as it is a loose confederation of like-minded professionals.

3. I realize that this entity, if it does become reality, will have cons as well as pros. can we stop getting ahead of ourselves, here? can we talk about minimum standards first, instead of condo associations, the sub-continent, dues, my identity, etc.? it really is more important.

So if one writer doesn't like something then he should have the power to force all other writers to stop working and bargain with owners until he is satisfied?

For example, if a group of writers doesn't like the idea of working on Saturdays then they could force all other writers not to work on Saturdays? It makes no sense unless you want independent freelancers to give up all their rights.

'collective bargain' = UNION = SOCIALISM (at the worst stage)

Free market takes care of it. Your comments suggest that writers are stupid to the point they cannot think and make their own decisions.

Get a dictionary and school yourself about the definitions and the laws first. You want to cage all writers and enslave them into the collective bargain/union system. A couple of Batuls sitting on top of the 'union' would then decide what's best for everyone.

no; as the status quo shows us, one writer has no power at all.


this is alarmist and unlikely.


the free market takes care of nothing but profit. it does not ensure good treatment of employees, social responsibility of companies, etc.


quite the opposite: I would have them uncaged, and I would also have them break the bonds of slavery through organization.

The sole purpose of corporations is profit. If corporations don't do enough to multiply their profits the board will be dismissed. Do they care about employees, social responsibilities etc? NO. Do you care about it? NO.

In comparison to Wallstreet corporations essay companies are angels.

Minimum standards = Minimum project = Control

What is a "minimum project"?

Batul, you are a waste of time. Nobody, neither writers nor companies, cares about your moronic ideas. If I and a couple of other posters don't reply in this thread it will fade away naturally. That's actually the best way to deal with poseurs like you. Go away.

sorry, Major, but I don't believe you. if no one cared, this thread wouldn't be pushing 6 pages.

what I wasn't anticipating was this site being a hornet's nest made up of mostly company owners. I ignorantly and naively assumed that more people here would be interested in talking productively and intelligently about improving conditions for writers.

Go to any forum and start a new thread entitled: 'The Earth is flat and I think I have a solid proof for that.' You will get a similar attention you're getting here.

How proud of yourself you must be.

FAIL.