ESL/EFL vs. Native-Writers debate

Dear P, WB, and any other writers like them:

You are native writers of the English language. However, I am surprised to note your shallow knowledge of the recent research going on around the world on ENGLISH itself.

Before you can further your comments on the differences a non-native writer's English shows from that of your (say American English), you should read a few entries in an international journal called World Englishes: iaweworks.org/journal.php.

I hope if you are ready for a paradigm change (co-construction of knowledge), you'll see what is actually at play.

Regards

meoKhan-

Until you can learn to write a grammatically correct sentence, which is something for which objective standards exist, I am done debating this with you. The issue has nothing to do with racism, culturalism, or what research is being done in regards to the state of the language today. This issue is about whether or not information can be presented in English in a clear and concise manner; anyone that can do this, regardless of their national/racial/native language status has a place in this business. Anyone who can't shouldn't be charging money for such a service without letting their customers know about their limitations. That is and was the sole point of the argument.

Here's a very simple sentence for you to start with: Go **** yourself.

Yes, MeoCon, our parents taught us how to use asterisks.

I have told you many times I say it out that I am an ESL writer from Pakistan. I have written many a paper for US citizens. They've been quite happy with my work. Why do you then always repeat the same thing?

On this forum my Location is clearly given as Pakistan. I have nothing to hide. Whatever I am, people can see me.

One thing is very clear: You guys can only swear. You call yourself writers but you have no background in research - yes, it's the fact. In this way, it's actually you who is cheating the customers only because you belong to the swearing society of the US.


No, no, no. Dear WB you're being so humble. Just say it out loud that your parents taught you swear words, and you use these with them all the day. Everyone knows it!

You will spend all your time in underestimating my posts here. But I know you'll NEVER bother to read even one journal entry from World Englishes because you don't want a kick in your behind. LOL!

Good. That means you don't cheat anyone. It doesn't mean that you write as well as a well-educated native speaker, or a truly fluent foreign speaker.


Then they were either naturalized citizens or too stupid to tell the difference between EFL and fluent writing.


Wrong. I do swear, but I also post reasoned and rational arguments to your statements and the sources you've posted. You have failed to respond to these, focusing only on the swearing. That's your hangup, not mine.

You have no idea what my background is. You don't get a 4.0 earning multiple degrees without knowing how to do a little research.


Not really...they're either so simplistic that a ten year old could formulate the same thoughts, or so unintelligible that it isn;t worth the time spent guessing.


Post the article here and I'll read it. I've read everything else you've posted, and responded to it, and that's where the conversation always dies....

You may have knowledge in your area but about research on language you know nothing but still you give your verdicts so strongly as to sound like Pop.


Now, this is narrow-mindedness once again. I have already posted the material on Standard American English (community-based norms).


Yes you do everything right. You're perfect and your sister WB is with you! I am always wrong.


All the members on this forum MUST read this statement and figure out the person P really is!!!


Now you're asking me to violate copyright law! The real you is in front of everyone now!!! I cannot do that.


I have given you all the details about the journal; if you care to know more about this world, it's you who should go and read.

Apparently I know more than you do, because I can actually understand what the articles you posted were talking about.


Yes. And what you posted stated that all communities have language norms. The fact that Standard American English exists and is preferred in use at universities, in business, etc. does not make Americans racist--it makes them like every other culture in the world when it comes to language.


I never said anything remotely like this, and have openly acknowledged mistakes when I have made them.


Attention Forum: Who I REALLY am is a person that believes MeoKhan's writing is decent for a non-native speaker, but someone you should stay away from if you want model essays completed in fluent English. This belief of mine makes MeoKhan's rectum hurt, so he comes here to complain.


Fair use and with attribution you don't even need the fair use protection. Besides, you've already posted many article excerpts, meaning that you already broke the law (if this were actually breaking the law). MeoKhan: 0. Real World: 2 (this round).


You have given the title of the journal. Is there a specific article in it that you think proves your point (although frankly, I'm not entirely sure what your point is)?

This is why I call you Pheelyks the Socrates! America should be proud of you - the perfect scholar knowing everything!


And you NEVER, NEVER accept yourself mistaken. How balanced!


Now take this statement to someone teaching language in a US university; you'll be surprised to see how flawed your claim is!


Yes! Everyone stay away from me. P is the highest authority on essay writing!


When did your mom teach you this swear word? You've mastered all these very well and you and your sister WB deserve appreciation!


My point is - US English is just one variety and is not superior to any other. This understanding is well grounded in US universities even (you must investigate this).

Would it be better if I refer a book to you on the same point because a book is more comprehensive? Let me know.

MeoCrap, you keep using use the same tired arguments and assertions that I've countered numerous other times. I acknowledge my mistakes when I make them, never claimed to be perfect, and though US English is not "superior" to other languages it is quite rightly the objective standard for language used in US universities.

Until you have something new to add, I'm done actually trying to discuss anything.

Yes, Sir! As I said earlier, I will cite some interesting references to how US universities treat ESL/EFL varieties and what research is saying about all this.

Warm regards


LOL! Childhood learning never leaves one.

You keep threatening to do so-STFU and do it already!

...and is never obtained by some, apparently.


You mena, giving them poorer grades when they can't construct grammatically correct sentences in English classes? Yowza!

Huh?


LOL! Maybe yes. But then your statement manifests US universities as being money-centered rather than quality education.

Wow. You caught another typo. Congratulations.


No, it doesn't--how did you manage to make that leap in logic?

Also, statements don't "manifest" things unless you know of conjuring spells that I don't.

I love this!
MeoKhan, what do you have to say?


I agree with you 100%.

You may want to pay attention to the dates on the posts, moron. All disagreements have long since been resolved, as Meo reveals his true location and qualifications to customers BEFORE they pay.

Thank you for pointing out that your stooge Meokhan is a horrible writer.
Now i demand that you say the same thing about yourself.

I didn't say that at all. Did you read what you quoted?


Gee....no.

Wow. You demands are pretty ineffective, aren't they? Is it depressing to be such an impotent?

do you have proof?

Meo openly acknowledges his country of origin on this forum, and claims to tell his customers elsewhere, as well. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

I like this statement better without the "as well."

the truth is that no one has proof about what Meo tells his clients. you can maybe fill in the blanks, but no one knows.

I assume WB is off drumming up some "proof;" I'm sure we'll chat again the next time I ask him a direct question. till then.

Why, because you're a fu**-n clueless idiot? Why don't you educate us by explaining exactly what is wrong with it?


As far as I know, Meo has acquired some clients via this forum. Those clients were fully aware of Meo's location and ESL background BEFORE paying. THAT is proof.


Just because you're a fan of chicks with dicks doesn't mean you can label me as a male. Keep your fetishes in the closet.

as far as you know isn't proof of what they knew, or what Meo told his clients. you can say anything you want on the internet. it's funny that you're so insane about proof to others, WB, but when called, you can't produce.

WBS-- no proof. and it's not even your BS!


as far as I know, I've never run into a lady who default-insults "f' p," "chicks with di" type stuff. that sounds to me more like the homo-aggressive, anti-social ranting style of a male owner/manager with no social skills. don't worry, though, you can be whatever you want on the internet... proof not required.

Right. So I give him the benefit of the doubt, given that he's honest here, and you decide to mistrust him because you're an irrational person.


There you go again!

I can easily prove any substantive claim that I have ever made in this forum.



Contradictory hypocrisy (in the same post, ta boot) at its finest . . . . The moron can't keep his lies straight from one sentence to the next. SNL couldn't produce a funnier skit.

Meo has obtained clients in this forum. That is a fact. What is also a fact is that Meo has publicly revealed his location and ESL background in this forum.

By the way, COWARD, you still haven't explained what is wrong with pheelyks' use of "as well.'

yes, pheelyks, I assume.

nice try at sidetracking, WB, but it's still not proof. you apparently think that Meo's customers on this board also scour it for his nationality. that's not proof that he discloses it to them. that's you making hypothetical leaps out of flawed logic, because you can't prove your statement.

I happen to doubt that Meo informs every new client of his language status. do you know enough otherwise to make a declarative statement about it? you apparently don't even know enough to see when people are repeating your phrases out of mockery, not ignorance. so, I doubt it.


"as far as I know"

Yes, and it continues to be a problem. It's also ridiculous when you're harping on someone else for making assumption, even when those assumptions are based on much stronger evidence.

You're either pathetic or purposefully illogical, and I still can't decide which.

Hi, bottom-leaks!! (Phyleeks)
how are you? After I have the pleasure to see you again. I have researched and found that you are an Indian forum poster hired by essayscam......What's your opinion?

Even you realize it was such a stretch that you had to explain it so people would get it. That means it's no good.


My opinion is that your research skills are about as useless as your writing.

pheelyks
Don't mind! just joking....anyway, you did not answer my question: how are you?

Don't you have a rock to crawl under somewhere?

it's not a problem; it's the nature of the medium. some people admit it; the ones who don't have problems.

as far as I know, WB has made a phony declaration that seems to be based on glad-handing his little squire. I don't know this for sure, so I'm offering WB the chance to get some facts behind it.

I enjoy watching WB scramble when put to his own standards, almost as much as you seem to enjoy chiming in when I ask him a question.

There is only a certain level of assumption demanded by the medium, and there's still a logical way to go about it.


...when it's convenient for them....


No, WB has made an unproven declaration based on self-evident facts, and has acknowledged both the unproven nature of the declaration and the facts upon which it is built. You are assuming the opposite of WB, have declared as much, and have no facts that support your declaration.


....in a thread started when another poster quoted me in regards to Meo, and that you had no place in before appearing out of nowhere to ask WB that question. If you still think it's rude/weird/wrong to post on a public forum when you weren't directly addressed, you need to look to your own behavior.

I'm not barging in answering questions addressed to other people. try that in any other public forum. shame on you for keeping on doing it, too.

WB: you made a smarmy, unrealistic assumption that Meo, a forum member with abysmal English, would offer his English skills to potential clients for inspection before taking their orders. and you dressed it up as a fact. only you know why. I'm just here to call BS.

No, just being a general a-lole in a thread to which you have nothing of value to add.


It happens all the time.


You need to learn something about shame before you start trying to spread it around.


Once again, this assumption is based on observable evidence. This has been stated and the evidence cited many times. WB has also fully admitted that this is an assumption, based on the cited evidence. You continuing to ignore this is just pathetic, and doesn't earn you any points with anyone reading.

where is your "cited evidence" that WB admitted to the above being an assumption?

this is not evidence; this is a classic WB red herring.

now you look like an idiot buying into a bigger idiot's fallacy. you should have stayed out of it.

Both of the things WB cites as facts are facts. Meo has repeatedly acknowledged his native (and current) country as well as his ESL status on this forum. Meo has obtained clients from this forum. That these facts are the basis for WBs assumption is implied in the context of the conversation, which I don't really feel the need to quote in its entirety--you can click one of several links on this page to head back and read it yourself.

WB started by making an assumption and stating it as fact, claiming that Meo tells all of his clients about his ESL status and language limitations up-front. when pressured, WB typically didn't admit this wasn't a fact he was capable of knowing or stating. instead, he took two unrelated facts, and tried to make them look like the same thing. I know you just want to help, pheelyks, but you don't seem to get it. saying, "Meo tells his clients about his language issues before he takes their money," is not the same as saying, "Meo's language issues are on display here-- clients reach Meo here-- therefore, clients see his language issues on display." while both of WB's statements are BS, the second statement, as you note, looks more like a chain of assumptions than a presentation of useful info. you note this-- WB doesn't seem to see a difference. now, please stop interrupting, and let him dig.