ESL/EFL vs. Native-Writers debate

I have been too busy all this week making money out of writing.

My language skills (and yours too) are on display here. So, it's not a problem. I am of course from Pakistan. If I am not, can you tell me where I am from? I am sure you've had no work all this week and so you thought you should continue talking nonsense as you always do.

I want concrete evidence on my country of origin from you. I am waiting.

It is NOT an assumption, dumb phuck. I am operating under the understanding that Meo is telling the truth about his practices. He has EARNED that benefit of the doubt. Plus, why in the hell would he LIE about that? Fraudsters lie about being native speakers, not the other way around. To my knowledge, he is the ONLY-and I do mean ONLY-ESL writer to ever post in this forum who has stated that he practices full disclosure with his clients. If that were not true, he sure as fu*- would not be POSTING it repeatedly in this forum! That would not exactly work in his favor if he were trying to hoodwink people about his location/skills. Get it yet?

WB-- typical of you-- first the red herring, now the straw man. the lack of proof is not about whether Meo discloses he is an ESL speaker from Pakistan on this board. it's about whether Meo discloses this to his clients. you don't know that; neither do I. neither does Meo, apparently, because he's not telling.

Meo-- it's great to know you've been busy. it's also interesting that you have no comment as to what we've been arguing about, which is your disclosure (or lack thereof, depending on what you believe). and you have nothing to say about this... you'd rather brag about how busy you are-- ahem-- writing papers. "I'm sure!"

Yes, I do, because Meo has stated such numerous times in this forum. If you weren't a clueless, careless, irresponsible fu, you would know that.

On October 8, 2011, editor75 openly acknowledged that he is already fully aware of (and accepting of) Meo's publicly-stated practice of "preemptive" disclosure with private clients:


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Thanks for playing. I was just waiting or you to make your previous claims so that highlighting your ignorance and cluelessness yet again would be all the more sweet. Playing you like a fiddle is quite amusing. Toot toot!

WB-- I suspected then (in your quote) that Meo's construction of himself on an anonymous message board as a "full disclosure ESL writer" was a lie, and I stand by that. you think posting old news that supports my current stance means "game over?" wow, you look like an idiot.

not just for that, but also, for believing Meo.

anyway, congrats on another hollow, imaginary, self-proclaimed victory, crazy. thanks for exposing everyone yet again to some of your favorite fallacies.

You mean assumed, don't you? Does changing the word actually make you think you're not doing the very thing you're b**-hing about?


Uh huh....

Yes, all of my recent and previous clients know that I am from Pakistan. The simple proof is that PayPal is not available in Pakistan so I use money transfer methods that require my name, address, bank account for the wire transfer. GOT ITTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!


I had had a very good idea about what you were vainly trying to say only to waste the forum's space and our time. This is the reason I made only one and shorter post.

I hope you'd stop moaning now.

Your friend and closest associate Hala (WRT) earned you respect too. Then its proven she is liar and cheat. Glad not earn respect from you.

I'd explain why this is bad logic if I thought you'd understand me.

so, Meo, even if one believes you don't have a phony, unverified Paypal, your defense is that your name and address are the back of some wire transfer. thanks for letting everyone know how you "notify" clients of your language status. lol.

...and the asinine assumptions continue.

You already knew that Meo stated that he practices full disclosure will his clients, both in this forum and privately. STFU and admit that I schooled you yet again, ya lying a*hole.

of course I know that Meo states he practices full disclosure with his clients... unlike you, I don't believe him.

Whether you believe me or not is of zero importance to me. Those who should, know it well and trust me and my work that is why I have returning clients all the time.

You're the one who has lost all the respect on this forum because you're full of contradiction. Why are you so jealous of me being a writer? Only because you don't know what punctuation stands for?

Inasmuch as my language skills are concerned, everyone can see my writing and reading skills on this forum. So I am like an open book. I am happier to be ONE inside-out: whatever I am. You don't need to be jealous.

contradictions*

Right. You make an assumption, too. Your assumption is based on bitterness and envy, though, whereas the assumption that he's telling the truth is supported by his honesty and openness on the forum. One assumption is more logical than the other.

pheelyks: once again, I completely agree with you. I am making an assumption. there is no need to counter by making offensive assumptions about about a point on which we agree, is there?

it may seem bitter to you, but I believe it to be realistic that a writer would not lead with, or say, "by the way, just so you know, I speak World Englishes." as to how logical that scenario is, I'll leave it to you, this hell-pit's ostensible, repetitious logician.

once again: I am making an assumption.

as opposed to:


I know it's hard for you to get stuff, sometimes. the crux isn't my denial of Meocon's disclosure being an assumption; it's WB's.


Meo: you're right; I'm jealous. I long to unlearn all of the proper English I've grown up with, and offend customers with my awkward phrasing and misuse of countable nouns. seriously, Meo, I've used article spinners that have better grammar than you do. to be that... innocent... it would be great.

btw, thanks for still not telling anyone when, if ever, you tell your clients that you are a low-intermediate-level ESL speaker and writer. all we have so far is your address on a wire receipt and your word that you don't have a phony, unregistered Paypal, which is not the same thing as disclosure.

It's very good to see that SOME of your lines NOW start with capital letters. Positive change is good. You've shown to the world that besides being envious you can learn a little too. Congrats.

You don't need to worry about my English, my country of origin, or the real me.

First, actually acknowledging that agreement at some point (before now) would have been good. Instead, you kept ignoring the issue and repeating offensive assumptions about WB and Meo. That's hypocritical.


It's very logical. There are many customers that specifically request ESL writers, or that writers do not use "complex language" because they want the work to read like an ESL student's.


Where's the illogic?


It takes a long time to drill the point home. You know that.


Not hardly. Just rational.

BINGO!


Oh, you mean like the plural possessive of "sheep"?

If the OP is any indication of the sort of writing a non-native writer would produce, then I can say that yes, a native writer will do a better job for you ninety-nine times out of a hundred.

That's not to say that non-native writers are incapable or stupid. Far from it. I'm tutoring a few international students in academic writing right now. They're very smart; they just have problems writing grammatically correct and natural-sounding English. In my experience, most non-native English speakers retain a few recognizable quirks in their writing, even after years of practice writing formal English. This is only natural, but it also means that I wouldn't hire a native German speaker to write a college-level English paper, just as I wouldn't hire a native English speaker to write a college-level German paper.

WB-- way to stay on-topic. your stubborn refusal to stay in the bounds of the current argument, when cornered, is truly something.

you have no business stating that Meo informs all of his clients of his language status, because you have no proof that Meo does this; you are making a huge assumption.

oh, and, jmho, great crusader, but Meo is another scammer, just like WRT. they both shined your boots up, and now you're all set to look like a doofus accessory again. it must be frustrating; no wonder you're raving about "sheep" like a crazy person.

pheelyks-- his English is abysmal. even clients who request basic language still want basic grammar rules followed. "world Englishes!"

Meo-- my purposeful use of lowercase sentence-starters is a style I have chosen for the internet. only a dunce would regard the base inference that I don't know how to capitalize words as some sort of legitimate accusation. you, meanwhile, have a long way to go before you can even separate countable and non-countable nouns correctly. if you actually are busy, which I doubt, I pity your clients.

LMAO! Anyone who reads this thread can see that I spanked you, just as I have spanked you in EVERY previous debate.


I don't recall specifically stating "all." Regardless, why is your completely biased, void-of-evidence assumption that he is "lying" acceptable, but my unbiased, evidence-based acceptance that he is telling the truth unacceptable?


I have the following:

1. his word;

2. his public disclosures in this forum;

3. his writing skills on public display in this forum;

4. his statement-which is a FACT-that PayPal is not available in Pakistan, leaving him with little choice but to use wire/bank transfers that require full disclosure-in advance-to the customer of Meo's country and address.

5. to my knowledge, Meo has no Web site, so he can't hide behind lies about being a native speaker; anyone who hires him will have already experienced his writing skills via this forum and/or through private emails prior to submitting payment.

Now, where's YOUR proof that he is "lying"?


If I recall correctly, you have publicly stated that you signed-up in this forum to attack me because I am a "racist" who frequently issues such criticisms of ESL writers. Hypocrite much? What happened to the great defender of ESL writers? What happened to the ESL teacher who insisted that the average, ESL writer is just as good? Your actions are considerably worse than those of which you falsely accused me because you are attacking an HONEST, ESL writer (which I will never do). This is all because Meo represents an inconvenient obstacle in your propaganda campaign against me. He is an ESL writer who does NOT lie about his location or native language, which is why I have no problem with him. You can't stand it. ;)

WB, you don't know what Meo tells his customers. you assume he informs them of his language status. I assume he doesn't. I'm not even saying my assumption is any more legitimate than yours. I'm just saying they're both assumptions. why is this so hard for you to admit?

You're doing all the assuming, pal.

I don't have to assume that Meo is telling the truth.
I don't have to assume that he has repeatedly made public disclosures in this forum.
I don't have to assume that his writing skills are on public display in this forum (in over 1,100 posts).
I don't have to assume that wire/bank transfers require full disclosure of the receiver's name, country, and address.
I don't have to assume that Meo's clients communicate with him via private message and/or email before paying.
I don't have to assume that Meo is hiding behind the faceless, false claims of a Web site.

The preponderance of evidence makes it much more likely than not that-one way or another-MeoKhan reveals his location and native language to his clients before they pay.

For a very long post by WB on my status, do you have only 2 lines to state? That shows you're out of words. Your argument is so baseless that you don't know what to say now.

I don't have a website for sure. If in the future I do, I will very clearly tell the visitor of all the things that I say here. Mark my words.

Secondly, you have been repeating if I tell my clients about my background or not is a useless rant. For so many complications (e.g. PayPal), it's virtually not possible for me hide or misrepresent my country of origin - which also tells the other (if I am hiding) about my language background.

WB-- I'm not attacking "an honest ESL writer." I'm attacking you for being selectively gullible, and not holding yourself to the same standard of proof to which you hold others. your failure to admit that the above list is made entirely of assumptions is moronic, stubborn, and strange, but not all that surprising.


haha.

How so very stubbornly you change your statements. You don't even know what being ashamed means. You now have to find another point from where you can start your baseless rants so that you can stay on this forum. That's what you want.


Being embarrassed is so painful. :-p

Really? How does my extensive evidence list make me "gullible," exactly? More importantly, I once again ask that you post YOUR list of counter-evidence.

(You know, it would be much more simple to admit another humiliating defeat instead of continually ignoring my challenges to substantiate your blatantly hypocritical, purely propaganda-based assumptions.)

In short, editor75's twisted position is that Meo is "lying," despite the following:

1. he has no proof whatsoever;
2. it makes absolutely no business sense for Meo to do so;
3. the preponderance of evidence in Meo's favor.


Still no legit response . . . . Gee, I wonder why. Hmmmm.

WB-- if you haven't gotten it by now, you're not going to get it. it may be that your egotism has led you to see the empirical validity of all of your own statements as infallible. before this devolves into some sort of case-study in denial and narcissism, I'm going to try to spell the situation out for you one last time.

you claimed that Meo informs his clients about his language status. you didn't preface this claim with "I think," or "I suppose..." you just put it out there as a fact. and you're trying to defend it as a fact. but it's not; it's an assumption. good luck defending it. no one even knows for sure if Meo has clients.


thanks for your concern, but there's no need for embarrassment. I know the difference between an address on the back of a receipt and a statement of disclosure regarding language status.

Can you tell me how I can (supposedly at least) operate in the market without doing what I have been saying I do and you're denying that I don't?


Yes I know you don't need to be embarrassed when you're faced with such a situation because changing statements so frequently has made you senseless. You don't feel being embarrassed anymore. All you know is brag on the same issue.

Too late . . . .


Earth to retard:

1. his word; - (enforced by the pieces of evidence below)

2. his public disclosures in this forum; - (FACT)

3. his writing skills on public display in this forum; - (FACT)

4. his statement-which is a FACT-that PayPal is not available in Pakistan, leaving him with little choice but to use wire/bank transfers that require full disclosure-in advance-to the customer of his name, country, and address; - (FACT)

5. it makes no business sense whatsoever for Meo to "lie" about being an ESL writer or "lie" about making prospective aware his ESL status (a fraudulent, ESL writer either lies about being a native writer or intentionally does not disclose the truth); - (FACT)

6. to my knowledge, Meo has no Web site, so he can't hide behind lies about being a native speaker; anyone who hires him will have already experienced his writing skills via this forum and/or through private emails prior to submitting payment. - (FACT)

Now, smartass, you tell me which of the 5 pieces of evidence above is my "assumption." For at least the third time, I also request that you post your counter-evidence that Meo is lying.

you're right, it's too late. those are assumptions, and you still don't know what a fact is. sorry.

Indeed, nutcase.


Good luck getting anyone in the sane world to agree with you.


I now issue request #4 for you to post evidence proving that your accusation that he is lying is not just a hypocritical, propaganda-based assumption with no basis in the realm of likelihood.

I'm not here to pretend an anonymous message board is some sort of haven for valid evidence of anything... except maybe that some of its more entrenched members may tend to blur the line between the "social" and the "para-social."

You demand evidence, I provide it, and now you want to claim that it doesn't matter? Wow.


You can continue to "pretend" that I didn't slap you across the face with real-world evidence all day long. The fact of the matter is that I have proven that not only are you no match for me in any debate, but you're a crooked, clueless, pompous person. Seriously, you are one of the most disagreeable, despicable people with whom I've ever had the distinct displeasure of communicating. If I ever saw you in person, I would have to restrain myself in order to prevent your eyeballs from being scratched out of their sockets.

By the way, you should really see a psychiatrist about your obvious obsession/issues with your own social disorders and projection.

haha. uh... this is what you're escaping here, actually.

btw, nice grab with the "psych 101" routine-- a gem of my own frequent use, now shining in your rotten crown. but, a gem! poor WB... you just couldn't resist spitting my diagnosis of you back at me.


and then...


I've got a couple years of college psych, WB, and I'm no doctor, but I'm a little concerned. this is a very quick turn from pathetic parroting to some sort of weird, psycho sissy-fantasy. since you're so up on "projection," WB, I'm sure you know about rapid cycling, and its association with bipolar mood disorder.

Hey, aren't you the one who is always demanding that people stay on topic? I guess that doesn't apply to you when you're getting pummeled. You'll do anything to change the subject, including falling back on your baseless psycho-babble. Oh, and you got it backwards, a-hat. I'm mocking YOU and YOUR obvious social anxiety problems that you project onto others in a faceless forum in which social skills have little to no value. This isn't Facebook or chemistry.com. Wake up, psycho.

I'm not the one who mentions "social" s-i* virtually non-stop. I only took beginning psychology, but it's pretty clear to me that you are an unstable, delusional nutcase.

it's your world.

If I don't have social skills, why is it that nobody likes or agrees with YOU?

For the record, I have a wonderful family and plenty of friends in all walks of life. NONE of my relationships are "online." That's because I don't give a s-i* about "online" relationships. I make no effort whatsoever to pursue or nurture online relationships because they are meaningless to me. They're shallow and often completely fake. All of the people in my life are real, live, air-breathing humans with whom I can exchange expressions, handshakes, hugs, and all other forms of direct contact.

I actually have a great personality. I'm funny, smart, adventurous, caring, and extremely generous with everyone in my life (as well as with numerous charities, including "Wounded Warrior Project," St. Jude Children's Hospital, and the American Heart Association). You, on the other hand, obviously place far too much value and importance on online personality. That speaks volumes about the shallow nature of your daily existence. You are incredibly sad. You literally bring a tear to my eye. Are you bed-ridden, and your only solace is a laptop through which you can type away your bitterness and sorrow? No healthy person with even a faint amount of hope or self-esteem would engage in your current schedule of propaganda peddling and ignorant, false, baseless assumptions.

Tell me-deep down, do you love yourself at all? When lying in bed each day, having been beaten down yet again by the drudgery of your own existence, do you think about ending it all? Do you think about stopping the pain? It must be difficult knowing that not a single, earthly soul loves you. Even if you were to take your own life, it wouldn't make a ripple. You've already accepted that fact, but it hurts, doesn't it?

I feel sorry for you, because you have about as much to look forward to in life as a racehorse with a broken leg. At least when a racehorse dies, its death means a little something. Its death contributes something to society-glue. No, not the glue that you sniff to ease your depression, but the glue that will one day affix the small piece of paper to your cheap, stapled together, pine casket, reading:

"Here lays John Doe."

Your gardner is moving out state to care for my house. You pay him cheap rates.